A litte update!

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Honorable_Pawn

Graphics be damned. Fix the bad AI.

Hell yes.

[Honorable_Pawn]

One final point...As an honor graduate from a top-20 business program (USF) I must comment on the conversation as it related to opportunity cost.

First of all, one does not need exact numbers to determine if there is, in fact, an opportunity cost. OOTP's balance sheet/income statement is irrelevant to the discussion. It doesn't matter if it is a dime or if it is a euro.

Any single unit of cost (whether it be monetary or other wise) is a unit of cost that is not spent on other endeavors. If that unit of measure is not spent on "A" then it is spent on "B".

One would think that an Economist would know the distinction.

A million dollars vs. ten billion dollars does not change the meaning of "opportunity cost".

Yes, I agree that we do not know OOTP's financial statements but that does not mean that opportunity cost does not exist. Nonsense. Either the economist didn't spend enough time explaining himself or the economist did not attend USF.

[Honorable_Pawn]

One last thought of the day:

Living in a fish eye's lens
Caught in the camera's eye
I have no heart to lie
I can't pretend a stranger is a long-awaited friend.

All the world is, indeed, a stage
We are merely players
Performers and portrayers
Each another audience
inside the gilded cage.


What's the point of this quote?


Get on with the fascination
the real relation
the underlying theme.


There ain't no point.



So......



what all of this means is that 3-D is a waste of time.

[Honorable_Pawn]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Yep, my feelings exactly.

fwiw, I sit down with OOTP 10,000 times for each time I fire up MLB2005.

Pay attention to this Mark Johnson. This is your customer base. Sure, you might get a one-time purchase from Joe Schmoe but you must always understand why Curt Shilling plays your game. It's not because of fancy graphics.

It's because we care about accuracy, depth, choices, balancing now vs later. Mark, you need to focus on paper, rock, scissors. Every decision should impact another choice. Soren Johnson spoke of this in great detail.

Stop selling me the smell of the steak....I'm hungry, I wanna eat.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Have people ever thought that they are trying to reach new customers? We are already captured (im sure like it is now that 3D will be optional) and its only so much money to be made with the same audience ever year. Most of you guys come from board games and old computer sims (no offense) so of course 3D will not be popular for most long time users/players of text sims.

IMO, AI is 10x better than any other console game (and most text sims based on a sport) on the market fwiw..

There is a market for 3D, I come from playing CPU vs CPU on popular sports games on consoles. When I fired up MVP2005, I was playing "GM mode" and watching out my games in CPU vs CPU...The same goes for NBA2K, Madden, Pro Evolution, The Show, etc. I've been enjoying my sport games this way since a kid when EA allowed us to place the controller in the middle during the Sega years.

What those games above have in common is bad AI and lack of depth in franchise mode. For a few years now, these games have been trying to give that vocal minority an in depth franchise mode and even recently NBA2K added My GM which has some text based elements in it. Most guys who moan every year about the lack of these type of modes (GM) or a lack of in depth franchise don't even know games like OOTP exist or at the least think its some boring spread sheet game...Trust me I was one of them...

(NFL Head Coach could have done way better than it did if the AI wasn't bad.)

I don't think anyone including the OOTP team is expecting next gen graphics here so I don't understand the point about cost and all that hoopla. If anything this will make OOTP more money in the long run, so maybe they could hire that Class A programer who can fixed all those bad AI decisions

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I honestly don't think there is such a thing. I mean, look at the console AAA first person shooter titles, with production budgets in the tens of millions of dollars, and they have AI that is lackluster at best.

This.

We already have the best AI in the sports management games business IMO. So, $$ is better spent in areas where we lack, such as 3D.

[ghostrobot]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

This.

We already have the best AI in the sports management games business IMO. So, $$ is better spent in areas where we lack, such as 3D.

I couldn't agree more.

The AI isn't perfect, but it's pretty damn good especially when you compare it to everything else on the market. Honestly, I meant no offense when I said I could care less about 3D. If you guys can tap into a new market with 3D, then by all means I support it. I'm just saying, for me personally, the game is so good as it is, 3D or no 3D, I'll still be updating year in and year out.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

This.

We already have the best AI in the sports management games business IMO. So, $$ is better spent in areas where we lack, such as 3D.

Originally Posted by ghostrobot

I couldn't agree more.

The AI isn't perfect, but it's pretty damn good especially when you compare it to everything else on the market. Honestly, I meant no offense when I said I could careless about 3D. If you guys can tap into a new market with 3D, then by all means I support it. I'm just saying, for me personally, the game is so good as it is, 3D or no 3D, I'll still be updating year in and year out.

Absolutely agree with this. I really, really don't get the recent trend on these boards to bash the OOTP ai and certainly don't want it to appear that I was joining in it.

OOTP's ai is frankly incredible compared to other games in the same genre, and while it can always use some tweaks and refinements it's probably not ever going to get significantly better since it's so darn good now.

[Koprnkc]

Markus,
Any chance this could get implemented in the next patch?

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ootp-16-a.html

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by lukasberger

Absolutely agree with this. I really, really don't get the recent trend on these boards to bash the OOTP ai and certainly don't want it to appear that I was joining in it.

OOTP's ai is frankly incredible compared to other games in the same genre, and while it can always use some tweaks and refinements it's probably not ever going to get significantly better since it's so darn good now.

This isn't meant as an attack or a rebuff to you, lukas, and I won't disagree that there is bashing of the AI going on in some places. But I think the majority of those who don't have an interest in 3D (a group of which I am a part of) simply would prefer that the focus remain on the AI and not move to the visuals. And I don't think pointing out the flaws in the AI should be immediately labeled as bashing. I just think that the concern that the AI will eventually take a backseat is a legitimate concern at this juncture.

That being said, I completely understand Markus' post earlier about putting resources into areas where OOTP is lacking, and I don't deny him that right as a business owner.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

This isn't meant as an attack or a rebuff to you, lukas, and I won't disagree that there is bashing of the AI going on in some places. But I think the majority of those who don't have an interest in 3D (a group of which I am a part of) simply would prefer that the focus remain on the AI and not move to the visuals. And I don't think pointing out the flaws in the AI should be immediately labeled as bashing. I just think that the concern that the AI will eventually take a backseat is a legitimate concern at this juncture.

That being said, I completely understand Markus' post earlier about putting resources into areas where OOTP is lacking, and I don't deny him that right as a business owner.

Fair enough, I can't argue with any of that.

[DCG12]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

This isn't meant as an attack or a rebuff to you, lukas, and I won't disagree that there is bashing of the AI going on in some places. But I think the majority of those who don't have an interest in 3D (a group of which I am a part of) simply would prefer that the focus remain on the AI and not move to the visuals. And I don't think pointing out the flaws in the AI should be immediately labeled as bashing. I just think that the concern that the AI will eventually take a backseat is a legitimate concern at this juncture.

That being said, I completely understand Markus' post earlier about putting resources into areas where OOTP is lacking, and I don't deny him that right as a business owner.

Here's the only issue I take with that. You could make the same argument about any aspect of the game that is not directly AI related. For example I don't play in online leagues or historical, I am a fictional player only. So should I come on the forum and constantly harp about improvements to those areas because they are taking time away from AI improvements in my fictional game?

[rpriske]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

This.

We already have the best AI in the sports management games business IMO. So, $$ is better spent in areas where we lack, such as 3D.

Well THAT was the most disappointing thing I have read today...

[Caporegime]

Originally Posted by rpriske

Well THAT was the most disappointing thing I have read today...

Really? It is? Luckily you didn't visit CNN before you came here. You might have stumbled across this tragic news item that might've caused you to rethink precisely how disappointing that statement from Markus really is.

[BIG17EASY]

Originally Posted by DCG12

Here's the only issue I take with that. You could make the same argument about any aspect of the game that is not directly AI related. For example I don't play in online leagues or historical, I am a fictional player only. So should I come on the forum and constantly harp about improvements to those areas because they are taking time away from AI improvements in my fictional game?

I understand your point, but it's not really the same, not to mention that I am not making the same argument about other aspects of the game. (Maybe others are, but I am only speaking for myself.)

AI affects all forms of game play no matter how you play -- fictional, online, manager, general manager, historical simmer, etc. 3D visuals only enhance the aesthetics of the game and do not have any affect on the outcome of the games. For me, seeing the focus turn toward something that does not affect the actual playing of baseball games is disheartening.

[JcBoscan]

Originally Posted by Caporegime

Really? It is? Luckily you didn't visit CNN before you came here. You might have stumbled across this tragic news item that might've caused you to rethink precisely how disappointing that statement from Markus really is.

Did you know millions in Africa are starving today? See ... I can use misdirection too. Lame.

[DCG12]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

I understand your point, but it's not really the same, not to mention that I am not making the same argument about other aspects of the game. (Maybe others are, but I am only speaking for myself.)

AI affects all forms of game play no matter how you play -- fictional, online, manager, general manager, historical simmer, etc. 3D visuals only enhance the aesthetics of the game and do not have any affect on the outcome of the games. For me, seeing the focus turn toward something that does not affect the actual playing of baseball games is disheartening.

My point was more along the lines of time that Andreas spends developing tools for easier import/export of online leagues or tools to help online commishes or finding ways to tweak historical imports etc. These aren't AI related and could be argued that they take time and resources need on AI.

Now the thing is online is a big part of OOTP sales and Markus needs to do what is necessary to grow this part of the business just as adding a 3D representation will draw in customers who are drawn to a more visual game.

Also please understand that I don't really care about 3D, I was weined on Strat back in the late 60's early 70's. I play out all my games and am happy with the static stadium backgrounds I have found around the web so I don't have a horse in this race. I just don't get the amount of angst it causes some people. In particular after Markus has said in other threads that Jorin is the 3D guru (therefore not impacting AI development) and will eventually help the other OOTPDev games in this area. If anything I might argue that the more people Markus can afford to hire the better overall game we will have.

I don't think there's a point of arguing anyway.

If you won't play 3D, you will think on developing it as a big waste of time and money, and nobody will be able to make you change opinion.

If you will play 3D, you weill think of it as a great feature that had to be added versions ago, and nobody will be able to make you change opinion.

We're on the different banks of the river. And there's no bridge between us.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

I understand your point, but it's not really the same, not to mention that I am not making the same argument about other aspects of the game. (Maybe others are, but I am only speaking for myself.)

AI affects all forms of game play no matter how you play -- fictional, online, manager, general manager, historical simmer, etc. 3D visuals only enhance the aesthetics of the game and do not have any affect on the outcome of the games. For me, seeing the focus turn toward something that does not affect the actual playing of baseball games is disheartening.

Aren't most online leagues ran with all users with no AI involvement?

This remind me of FOF7 where all the improvements were to AI but the online community felt that AI improvements wasn't enough after all those years waiting for an update.

[David Watts]

My question is, where does this game rank amongst its peers when it comes to in game AI. I don't doubt that it has the best AI in the sports management genre, but doesn't that basically amount to video games and football manager? Is PureSim even around anymore? It's been forever since I played Strat or Diamond Mind. How does OOTP's in game AI stack up against those games? Action PC? I don't really consider those 3 sports management games though?