How does this game get good ratings ???

[The Real MD]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

That's certainly true. But it is also true that some opinions are offered without the requisite 'inside' knowledge, so to speak, of how things actually work behind the scenes. It is easy to make certain assumptions of why things are the way they are from the outside looking in. But when one gets to look at things from the inside, one discovers that it's not necessarily the same as how it looks from the outside.

I understand where you're coming from, but since so few of us here have that requisite 'inside' knowledge, I guess the alternative is to keep our opinions to ourselves and say nothing at all?

For virtually everyone here, our opinions can only be formed "from the outside looking in." If we're required to have inside knowledge before giving opinions and making assumptions, this forum will turn into a ghost town.

Anyhow, I'll split now and let this thread get back on topic.

[PhillieFever]

Originally Posted by mking55

I wasn't going to respond anymore because of the direction the original thread has swerved. You'll notice (perhaps) that I've been a member of this board since 2002 and the one they had before that. As I said, I've bought every version since V2. That doesn't mean I don't have a right to come and post in an existing thread with my "opinion" which in my country we're all entitled to. This comment is not just directed at you.

Now regarding your post above (and this part is directed at you), I have never ever complained about statistical accuracy in this game or the other one. If I want statistical accuracy I'll play Strat or Action or one of those. I like these games because the weird can happen once in a while. If I had a Pat Seerey with 815 home runs or a Gary Nolan with 587 career victories in every league I played, I'd be unhappy. But these unrealistic and rare things don't happen all the time. I love them. I'm not looking to recreate the past, I'm looking at a "what if" scenario in an alternate universe. Rod Serling does the play by play for all my games.

So Mr. PhillieFever, I don't think you're really referring to me when you write "Complaining however about statistical accuracy when you set the game up not to be statistically accurate is sort of deceitful don't you think?" I can honestly say (and you can look it up) I've never complained about statistical accuracy.

That's not news, but that too is reality.

Rod Serling? Who's he. LOL Have a great day Martin, I'm sorry you're not a fan of the game. I wish you well

[mking55]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

Rod Serling? Who's he. LOL Have a great day Martin, I'm sorry you're not a fan of the game. I wish you well

Well put. Thank you and same to you.

(Your post smacks of "you have your opinion and I have mine" and that's fine with me because we're both right.) That definitely works for me.

[PhillieFever]

Originally Posted by mking55

Well put. Thank you and same to you.

(Your post smacks of "you have your opinion and I have mine" and that's fine with me because we're both right.) That definitely works for me.

Well, after re-reading all of our posts, I came to the same conclusions you did, that both of us had valid but separate points that somehow got mixed together. To tell you the truth, I fought tooth and nail to try to get the trading engine tweaked during beta because I felt that team's were putting too much value into "if their team was improving" over "getting value in the deal" For example, say team A has Mike Schmidt and George Brett at 3rd base, but at 1st base they have Willie Montanez. The AI will trade Schmidt for say Bill Buckner, just because Buckner is better than Montanez, not taking into account at all the true value of Schmidt. You know what I mean?

[mking55]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

Well, after re-reading all of our posts, I came to the same conclusions you did, that both of us had valid but separate points that somehow got mixed together. To tell you the truth, I fought tooth and nail to try to get the trading engine tweaked during beta because I felt that team's were putting too much value into "if their team was improving" over "getting value in the deal" For example, say team A has Mike Schmidt and George Brett at 3rd base, but at 1st base they have Willie Montanez. The AI will trade Schmidt for say Bill Buckner, just because Buckner is better than Montanez, not taking into account at all the true value of Schmidt. You know what I mean?

Yes, I know what you mean. You're 100% right. That trade is beyond terrible and has no place in a "serious" baseball sim. If they were being offered Lou Gehrig, then maybe but I still wouldn't make the trade.

You have to acquire equal value or close to equal value even if you have a need at that position.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

I ask because Markus added a feature in the last patch which allows the user to prevent the recalc of potential, and this has added greatly to the trade AI.

Please help me to understand the value of this feature and forgive me for asking a noob question. I am trying OOTP after being a PureSim customer, so I don't know any of the background that led to the addition of this feature.

My current league was started in 1965 and I am still in my first pre-season. I am a masochist so I am controlling the Astros. I have 18 y/o Larry Dierker (potential rating of 3 stars) and 35 y/o Don Larsen (potential rating of 4.5 stars). I assumed that I would want Dierker's potential rating to be recalculated over time because he obviously has more potential than Larsen at this stage of their respective careers. Shouldn't Dierker's potential eventually be 4-5 stars while Larsen's declines?

The trade AI currently seems to value Dierker higher than Larsen even though the ratings are contrary. Why does preventing the recalculation actually improve the trade AI?

[PhillieFever]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Please help me to understand the value of this feature and forgive me for asking a noob question. I am trying OOTP after being a PureSim customer, so I don't know any of the background that led to the addition of this feature.

My current league was started in 1965 and I am still in my first pre-season. I am a masochist so I am controlling the Astros. I have 18 y/o Larry Dierker (potential rating of 3 stars) and 35 y/o Don Larsen (potential rating of 4.5 stars). I assumed that I would want Dierker's potential rating to be recalculated over time because he obviously has more potential than Larsen at this stage of their respective careers. Shouldn't Dierker's potential eventually be 4-5 stars while Larsen's declines?

The trade AI currently seems to value Dierker higher than Larsen even though the ratings are contrary. Why does preventing the recalculation actually improve the trade AI?

What was happening was, the AI was basing a player's overall career potential on just the 3 year's being recalculated, making a guy like say Mike Schmidt very easy to acquire in a trade very early in his career. With this option enabled, the AI takes Schmidt's entire career into consideration when giving him a potential rating, thusly making him much more valuable as a rookie. BTW, as a new historical player(which I assume you are) there are several options you should know about if you're shooting for more of a "historical" sim. I'll go through them right now, that way if you are interested you have what you need to get started.
To make a historical sim more historically accurate, these options need to be enabled/disabled

3 year recalc using real stats is standard and does a good job, I also recommend keeping pitcher stamina, and fielding ratings on the 3 year trend as well(all of these settings are on the 1st page of the startup wizard)
since L/R splits are not historically based, turning them on or off is a personal choice. I personally leave them on just for variety.

As I've already noted, I disable recalc for potential.

Everything else in the wizard section of the startup should be left at default.

Next in the global options, disable player development, this is a biggie if you expect player's to perform like their real life counterparts.
Next set the AI player evaluation at 100 ratings(0 for everything else), disable scouts, turn trading to low/hard/favor prospacts and and injuries on low, fatigue on high.

The entire strategy section leave at default, unless you're playing in the 4 man rotation era. If that's the case, change the option to 5 man rotation, and start highest rested. this works very well in this era of play.

In the historical section of the game setup, enable retire according to history, and player's miss seasons according to history.

In the options section, I choose to disable spring training, simply because it has no purpose in a historical game, other than to injure your players.

In the rules section, disable the draft if you want rookies to import to their original teams(E.G. Fergie Jenkins will import as a Phillie) As for the other options in the rules section, they're pretty much up to you. I'm in 1947 as the Phillies, so I've disabled free agency and arbitration, and left everything else default with the exception of trading.

As for trades, I personally like have real life transactions,so I disable trades until a move(trade or sale) needs to be made, I make the move according to history(forcing the trade if necessary) and immediately disable trades again.

I know this is a lot, so if you have any questions at all about anything, feel free to PM me, or post something here. Glad to have you aboard!

[actionjackson]

Totally off the top of my head re: the trade engine shortcomings. Would it be possible to do the same thing as the game does with the draft value AI? I know this feature doesn't work ideally yet, but supposedly it's better. To wit: the AI draft value is supposed to assign the player's career Runs Created and come up with a number to represent the player's draft value. Maybe in the case of trades, it could formulate a number based on the remaining years of the player's career and use WAR or VORP or something to that effect. Just food for thought tossed into the churning blender of ideas on how to improve the historical trade engine. I know zero about programming, so I'm not sure how feasible this is, but if it was done for the draft...Who knows?

[mking55]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

What was happening was, the AI was basing a player's overall career potential on just the 3 year's being recalculated, making a guy like say Mike Schmidt very easy to acquire in a trade very early in his career. With this option enabled, the AI takes Schmidt's entire career into consideration when giving him a potential rating, thusly making him much more valuable as a rookie. BTW, as a new historical player(which I assume you are) there are several options you should know about if you're shooting for more of a "historical" sim. I'll go through them right now, that way if you are interested you have what you need to get started.
To make a historical sim more historically accurate, these options need to be enabled/disabled

3 year recalc using real stats is standard and does a good job, I also recommend keeping pitcher stamina, and fielding ratings on the 3 year trend as well(all of these settings are on the 1st page of the startup wizard)
since L/R splits are not historically based, turning them on or off is a personal choice. I personally leave them on just for variety.

As I've already noted, I disable recalc for potential.

Everything else in the wizard section of the startup should be left at default.

Next in the global options, disable player development, this is a biggie if you expect player's to perform like their real life counterparts.
Next set the AI player evaluation at 100 ratings(0 for everything else), disable scouts, turn trading to low/hard/favor prospacts and and injuries on low, fatigue on high.

The entire strategy section leave at default, unless you're playing in the 4 man rotation era. If that's the case, change the option to 5 man rotation, and start highest rested. this works very well in this era of play.

In the historical section of the game setup, enable retire according to history, and player's miss seasons according to history.

In the options section, I choose to disable spring training, simply because it has no purpose in a historical game, other than to injure your players.

In the rules section, disable the draft if you want rookies to import to their original teams(E.G. Fergie Jenkins will import as a Phillie) As for the other options in the rules section, they're pretty much up to you. I'm in 1947 as the Phillies, so I've disabled free agency and arbitration, and left everything else default with the exception of trading.

As for trades, I personally like have real life transactions,so I disable trades until a move(trade or sale) needs to be made, I make the move according to history(forcing the trade if necessary) and immediately disable trades again.

I know this is a lot, so if you have any questions at all about anything, feel free to PM me, or post something here. Glad to have you aboard!

Mr. PhillieFever, this is an excellent post and while off-topic, it doesn't take away from the clarity you express in it. It deserves a sticky thread of it's own. (I'm being serious).

What good are some features if people don't know about them or understand them? In the heat of our "disagreement" yesterday I think we were more interested in finding flaws in what the other person said than calmly putting down our thoughts. That must have been your fault and if it wasn't then it was mine.

Personally, I only play historical. However, I don't want history to repeat itself. To go back to Pat Seerey and his 815 home runs, I absolutely loved it. I don't want "Fat Pat" to retire early and be never remembered. "Fat Pat" doing that (that rhymes) made me look him up and learn interesting things about him like his induction into Ted Williams's hitters hall of fame.

The one thing you explained wonderfully above was about the potential. Potential based on the entire career is quite logical to me. I went looking for this and I'm not sure I found it so I'll ask you.

I went into league setup and looked at player ratings (right side of screen). The 2 options at the top were whited out. I clicked on the top one and they both showed. The 1st one is the recalc after every year and the 2nd is prevent recalc of potential ratings. I assume that's what you're referring to.

I don't want recalc after every year but I do want the 2nd one regarding potential. So I clicked on it and then removed the check from the 1st one. What happens is that the 2nd one is now whited out but I can see the check mark is still there.

So, is this how it should look? Am I doing the right thing to get the whole career decide on potential? I'm just looking to import historical players and if they run wild, so be it. But I like the idea of the potential based on career if it will stop me from stealing every decent rookie who comes up to play.

Thanks in advance.

There should probably be a section of the forum where people can't reply but every potentially confusing feature or new feature is explained. One thread for every feature to be explained. That would be a positive step forward.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

there are several options you should know about if you're shooting for more of a "historical" sim. I'll go through them right now, that way if you are interested you have what you need to get started.

This was really helpful. I have started my league again using these settings. I already had some of them this way, but not all. I think I had a jumbled mess of fictional and historical before.

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

Next in the global options, disable player development, this is a biggie if you expect player's to perform like their real life counterparts.

I totally missed this! It is on the "Player & Picture Options" tab.

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

Next set the AI player evaluation at 100 ratings(0 for everything else)

I had also left this at the default because I didn't know what else to do.

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

The entire strategy section leave at default, unless you're playing in the 4 man rotation era. If that's the case, change the option to 5 man rotation, and start highest rested. this works very well in this era of play.

Great idea. I think this will help give the studs like Koufax more starts but still handle the doubleheaders.

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

Glad to have you aboard!

Thanks again for the help!

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by mking55

In the heat of our "disagreement" yesterday I think we were more interested in finding flaws in what the other person said than calmly putting down our thoughts.

Fortunately I have no flaws so there would never be any time wasted by others looking for them.

[actionjackson]

The problem, mking55, is that in deciding not to recalc player ratings based on real stats after each year, you can't very well go and prevent the recalc of potential ratings. That's a double negative. You either play with recalc on, and prevent the recalc of potential ratings, or subject yourself to the unpredictability of the player development engine. Now, if the option were available to make the potential ratings not subject to the cruelty of the development engine gods, that would be different. But then you would lose the unpredictability factor that comes with the development engine.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by mking55

There should probably be a section of the forum where people can't reply but every potentially confusing feature or new feature is explained. One thread for every feature to be explained. That would be a positive step forward.

This already exists, Martin. It is called the game manual!

(Sorry, my friend. I just couldn't resist.)

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by Orcin

This already exists, Martin. It is called the game manual!

(Sorry, my friend. I just couldn't resist.)

Not necessarily. Many times it's comments on things are vague.

[mking55]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

The problem mking55 is that in deciding not to recalc player ratings based on real stats after each year, you can't very well go and prevent the recalc of potential ratings. That's a double negative. You either play with recalc and prevent the recalc of potential ratings, or subject yourself to the unpredictability of the player development engine. Now, if the option were available to make the potential ratings not subject to the cruelty of the development engine gods that would be different that would be different. But then you would lose the unpredictability factor that comes with the development engine.

Maybe I understand what you're saying and I appreciate your attempt to guide me through this minefield.

I want to spit back at you what I think you've said, and you can confirm I understand (that can happen) or correct me. I thank you in advance.

I want to play historical. I don't want the player's to be recalculated year by year (or even after 3 years). I just want them to import and let the game decide how they'll develop. I'm not looking for strict replay or reality, but for an alternate universe on the other side of the looking glass.

My problem, that I hope could be somewhat alleviated, was my ability to stack my team with every good young player I desire to have with the trading set to most difficult. I thought PhillieFever was suggesting a way that the game would take better care of the superstars of tomorrow (Mantle, Mays, etc.) and keep me from getting them so easily.

Now I think you're telling me I'm SOL. I thought I was being told that upon import a player's potential would be derived from their entire career (i.e. It's Mantle so no one can ever get him in a trade except when he's 112 years old). I thought I was being told that I could set up the game to deliver that kind of potential.

Now I think you're telling me I can't. I have to use recalc on the player's ratings to disable recalc on the player's potential. Is that what you're telling me?

I must say that if that's the case, that's crazy. If the game has the ability to create potential based on an entire career, that should be independent of when their ratings are recalculated and should just be a part of the development engine.

You tell me if I understand or what I'm missing please. Thank you.

[mking55]

Originally Posted by Orcin

This already exists, Martin. It is called the game manual!

(Sorry, my friend. I just couldn't resist.)

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

Not necessarily. Many times it's comments on things are vague.

Yeah, what he said!

And who the hell reads the manual anyhow? The software is either intuitive or for things it can't be intuitive on they have to be somewhere in letters 10 feet high spelling out exactly what things do.

So there!

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by mking55

Maybe I understand what you're saying and I appreciate your attempt to guide me through this minefield.

I want to spit back at you what I think you've said, and you can confirm I understand (that can happen) or correct me. I thank you in advance.

I want to play historical. I don't want the player's to be recalculated year by year (or even after 3 years). I just want them to import and let the game decide how they'll develop. I'm not looking for strict replay or reality, but for an alternate universe on the other side of the looking glass.

My problem, that I hope could be somewhat alleviated, was my ability to stack my team with every good young player I desire to have with the trading set to most difficult. I thought PhillieFever was suggesting a way that the game would take better care of the superstars of tomorrow (Mantle, Mays, etc.) and keep me from getting them so easily.

Now I think you're telling me I'm SOL. I thought I was being told that upon import a player's potential would be derived from their entire career (i.e. It's Mantle so no one can ever get him in a trade except when he's 112 years old). I thought I was being told that I could set up the game to deliver that kind of potential.

Now I think you're telling me I can't. I have to use recalc on the player's ratings to disable recalc on the player's potential. Is that what you're telling me?

I must say that if that's the case, that's crazy. If the game has the ability to create potential based on an entire career, that should be independent of when their ratings are recalculated and should just be a part of the development engine.

You tell me if I understand or what I'm missing please. Thank you.

If you're playing with the development engine turned on and no recalc, then I'm not sure what the problem is. Go ahead and accumulate as many superstars as you want. Just remember, if the development engine is turned on, some Reggie Jacksons will turn into Joe Charbonneaus and vice versa, so I don't think it's possible to corner the market on all the good young talent. With no recalc, the players ratings can vacillate and you can increase or decrease this vacillation using the player development settings. You may think you have cornered the market on superstars, but you've got to remember the player development engine is a fickle bastard, as you noted using your Pat Seerey example. As stated above, it's level of fickleness is controlled by you, using the player development settings.

Perhaps you should try the various types of setups to discern which one makes for the strongest trade engine AI opponent. recalc off, recalc on while preventing recalc of potential ratings, and recalc on without preventing recalc of potential ratings. Try to trade for the same superstar in each of the three setups and whichever setup forces you to part with the most is probably the one you want to go with. You could even do it within the same game. Try to make the transaction under whatever setup the game has currently. Change the setup to one of the other two and sim one OOTP day ahead to make the change stick and try again. Change to the third setup, sim one OOTP day ahead and try again. I'd love to know if there's a difference and which one is the toughest, so let us know what you find. Cheers.

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

....Joe Charbonneaus

Good Lord. I can't remember something from 5 minutes ago, but I do remember him.

[golander40]

Great thread (last page) However, you guys are going to drive me back to drink ( a Very pleasant thought----buttttt) I truly believe the way I wish to play is available----just--- sorting thru all the info,is tough for this 70yr old drug addled brain.
Thanks
Gil The Ancient One

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by mking55

Yeah, what he said!

And who the hell reads the manual anyhow? The software is either intuitive or for things it can't be intuitive on they have to be somewhere in letters 10 feet high spelling out exactly what things do.

So there!

I haven't read it. I saw how big it was and figured it was pointless. I just opened the game and if I had a question I would TRY to find an answer in the manual but then I discovered it would be a lot faster just to ask on the forums.