Who is your all time favorite fighter - Page 5

Jersey-Jim · 01-23-2009, 10:26 PM

Larry Holmes co-wrote a great autobiography with the late Mitch Berger. If you read the book, you'll come away with an all new appreciation for Larry Holmes. When he started giving Ali too much trouble in his training camp (circa 1974), Ali wanted him out of there.

Holmes had a great jab and a lot of heart, climbing off the floor to beat Ernie Shavers, fighting with a badly injured hand against Ken Norton, and coming back from the brink of defeat multiple times during his career.

Towards the end of his career, his style of jabbing with an occasional right hand became boring to watch. But he still kept winning. Tyson's style (a shorter pressure fighter) would have always given Holmes' style problems as Frazier's did with Ali. But he had a lot more heart and handled adversity much better.

I thought he beat Spinks the 2nd time around, although it's his own fault he didn't knock him out.

Holmes never had the kind of fan base Ali had. And today, his name isn't mentioned as often as most others are when it comes to talking about the great Heavyweight Champs.

Consider this - Larry Holmes had 20 successful title defenses! And during those fights, there were more than just a few times when he had to overcome some kind of adversity to win.

You can't sweep 20 defenses under the rug.

Do I think he would have beat Frazier? No
Do I think he would have beat Tyson? No

But those are just styles that were all wrong for him. I see him beating both the Klitschkos (no - not in the same night!)

He could have beat Ali - just like Norton thanks to Eddie Futch.
He could split fights against Foreman, Holyfield, etc.

Larry Holmes, as an old man, did well in a losing effort against Evander Holyfield.

Once again - 20 defenses! Lennox Lewis had 15, but that was between mutilple title reigns and getting knocked out twice along the way.

The question is; does Larry Holmes beat Lennox Lewis?

Infinity · 01-23-2009, 10:31 PM

Have to agree with Jersey on Holmes. The fact is, he was a good fighter during an era that was very light on good fighters. I watched most of his fights on TV back in the day, and was never overly impressed with his actual abilities.

Jersey-Jim · 01-23-2009, 10:44 PM

That particular era was just loaded with wasted talent. Tim Witherspoon, Pinklon Thomas, even guys like Tony Tubbs and Tony Tucker. These guys were painful to watch at times. They fought about 60 seconds out of every round. And they looked good - when the were fighting! They were just missing something. It was like drinking an ice cream soda (remember those?), but the fizz was missing. These guys had good chins, good power, but they threw punches like someone was charging them extra for punch output.

I remember the night Witherspoon fought Frank Bruno at Wembley. Witherspoon fought so lazy, I was hoping Bruno would knock him out. Plus, I thought it would be "cool" if someone from England won the title. His chin was so damn solid, though, Bruno couldn't put him away. Finally, after Bruno gets tired in the championship rounds, Witherspoon puts his punches together and stops him.

I was totally disgusted.

I was so disgusted, the night Bonecrusher Smith caught Witherspoon cold early in their fight and bounced him off the floor a few times, I was so happy - it was like winning the lottery.

Well, I guess it wasn't that big - but it was big enough.

Infinity · 01-23-2009, 10:52 PM

Guess we can call it the era of the lazy heavyweights?....

Tommysixfingers · 01-24-2009, 12:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cap

Don't get me started.....Holmes won most of his fights with his big fat thumb in the eye. Funny how everyone forgets that little trick of his.....

Cap

But see, you allready started Cap, the problem is that you won't quit. If they ever made A Prince in New York 2 they should make one of the guys in the barbershop talk with a Canadian accent.

- What "aboot" Jack Johnson? I saw him fight Joe Jeanette when I was a kid, and he would have killed that chump Holmes

lethal liberal · 01-26-2009, 03:02 AM

Ali
Holmes
Hearns
Howard Davis Jr
Earnie Shavers
Roy Jones Jr.

I usually prefer the guys with the great left jab/right cross and that can box or punch but used to love watching Howard Davis Jr(maybe the fastest hands I have ever seen)even though he was feather fisted and Earnie Shavers even though he was pure slugger. I think Holmes,although considered a great,is still vastly underrated when compared with other great heavies. Outside of a prime Ali,I think Holmes would stand a chance to win 6 out of 10 against just about any heavyweight ever...then again,I am a huge Holmes fan! Thats what makes boxing so fun,we all have different reasons for choosing the fighters we like and the ones we cheer against. I respect anyone who straps on the gloves and steps through the ropes. Take care fellas.

PWillisTheMan · 01-26-2009, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jersey-Jim

That particular era was just loaded with wasted talent. Tim Witherspoon, Pinklon Thomas, even guys like Tony Tubbs and Tony Tucker. These guys were painful to watch at times. They fought about 60 seconds out of every round. And they looked good - when the were fighting! They were just missing something. It was like drinking an ice cream soda (remember those?), but the fizz was missing. These guys had good chins, good power, but they threw punches like someone was charging them extra for punch output.

I remember the night Witherspoon fought Frank Bruno at Wembley. Witherspoon fought so lazy, I was hoping Bruno would knock him out. Plus, I thought it would be "cool" if someone from England won the title. His chin was so damn solid, though, Bruno couldn't put him away. Finally, after Bruno gets tired in the championship rounds, Witherspoon puts his punches together and stops him.

I was totally disgusted.

I was so disgusted, the night Bonecrusher Smith cold Witherspoon cold early in their fight and bounced him off the floor a few times, I was so happy - it was like winning the lottery.

Well, I guess it wasn't that big - but it was big enough.

That Bonecrusher fight was a modern day dive. Spoon wasn't getting paid from King and had to satisfy his contract. He knew if he got stopped Don would let him go. I'm speculating of course. But i never saw Witherspoon close to hitting the canvas besides that. Including beating the tar out of Bonecrusher before hand.

Jersey-Jim · 01-26-2009, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PWillisTheMan

That Bonecrusher fight was a modern day dive. Spoon wasn't getting paid from King and had to satisfy his contract. He knew if he got stopped Don would let him go. I'm speculating of course. But i never saw Witherspoon close to hitting the canvas besides that. Including beating the tar out of Bonecrusher before hand.

Bonecrusher had great power when and if he threw punches putting his body behind it. I think there were genuine knockdowns. Spoon was basically finished after that. And he look so good early in his career. He had a fantastic chin, a great overhand right. His defense was good, too. He just wound up having crappy CF's.

PWillisTheMan · 01-26-2009, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jersey-Jim

Bonecrusher had great power when and if he threw punches putting his body behind it. I think there were genuine knockdowns. Spoon was basically finished after that. And he look so good early in his career. He had a fantastic chin, a great overhand right. His defense was good, too. He just wound up having crappy CF's.

Did you watch their first fight? he took plenty of right hands and laughed at them. he has gone on record saying he threw that one and I believe him. They were legit punches. But I don't think he couldn't have taken them.

He beat the Truth and should have beat Mercer afterwards. Not that gonzalez was much to talk about. But that was a savage whipping. And who could forget the TNF KO of Anders Ecklund?

I guess you could say i was a fan.

Jersey-Jim · 01-26-2009, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PWillisTheMan

Did you watch their first fight? he took plenty of right hands and laughed at them. he has gone on record saying he threw that one and I believe him. They were legit punches. But I don't think he couldn't have taken them.

He beat the Truth and should have beat Mercer afterwards. Not that gonzalez was much to talk about. But that was a savage whipping. And who could forget the TNF KO of Anders Ecklund?

I guess you could say i was a fan.

I never heard him say that he threw the fight. Anything's possible I guess. It's sort of like Jack Johnson and Sonny Liston. Both fighters could have had reasons to go in the tank.

What's beyond dispute is that Tim Witherspoon never fought up to his potential. He and Pinklon Thomas had the tools to do all kinds of things in the ring, but for one reason or another, opted out of the "spartan-like" lifestyle.

PWillisTheMan · 01-26-2009, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jersey-Jim

I never heard him say that he threw the fight. Anything's possible I guess. It's sort of like Jack Johnson and Sonny Liston. Both fighters could have had reasons to go in the tank.

What's beyond dispute is that Tim Witherspoon never fought up to his potential. He and Pinklon Thomas had the tools to do all kinds of things in the ring, but for one reason or another, opted out of the "spartan-like" lifestyle.

That I can't argue. He had every tool you could want in a Heavyweight champion. Except for dedication. I'll see if I can dig it for you. He didn't even want to fight but King had him strangled. So he just said screw it.

Not defending the actions. But Bonecrusher wasn't in his league.

http://www.total-boxing-info.com/tim...interview.html

He alludes to it here. i have heard or read him say it with more conviction. Never saying it was a flat out dive. but i read between the lines. Never really know for sure.

bigMatt · 01-26-2009, 11:42 PM

My favorite fighter was anyone in the ring against Prince Naseem Hamed, ODLH, Lennox Lewis or Sugar Ray Leonard!

Probably my favorite fighter period was Marvin Hagler.

Sugar Shane in his prime was one of my very favorites. That guy was lightning quick. His match against ODLH was one of my favorite fights.

I was also once a big fan of Marco Antonio Barrera. His fights with Eric Morales were epic.

Historically, it's gotta be Mickey Walker.

Jersey-Jim · 01-27-2009, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigMatt

My favorite fighter was anyone in the ring against Prince Naseem Hamed, ODLH, Lennox Lewis or Sugar Ray Leonard!

Probably my favorite fighter period was Marvin Hagler.

Sugar Shane in his prime was one of my very favorites. That guy was lightning quick. His match against ODLH was one of my favorite fights.

I was also once a big fan of Marco Antonio Barrera. His fights with Eric Morales were epic.

Historically, it's gotta be Mickey Walker.

Do you think Shane Mosley will be recognized, when all is said and done, as a better fighter than Oscar DeLaHoya?

Mosley beat him in two close fights. The second was a bit closer than the first. He beat Vargas, as did Oscar. The only person to really pound him was Vernon Forrest. It makes me wonder if Trinidad would have done the same to him at Welterweight?

PWillisTheMan · 01-27-2009, 05:08 AM

I thought Shane was better than either before the Margarito win. Though I wouldn't have argued if someone disagreed. I just feel Mosley had less holes than either one of them.

Chadness · 01-27-2009, 06:34 AM

Rocky Marciano
Erik Morales
Arturo Gatti
Manny Pacquiao
Ricky Hatton
Kostya Tszyu
Shane Mosley

Recurring theme? They wanted it.

bigMatt · 01-28-2009, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PWillisTheMan

I thought Shane was better than either before the Margarito win. Though I wouldn't have argued if someone disagreed. I just feel Mosley had less holes than either one of them.

I concur with this opinion. But once Mosley began losing his amazing speed, his effectiveness was diminished immediately. His skills definitely didn't age as well as did ODLH's.

Mad Bomber · 01-28-2009, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jersey-Jim

Do you think Shane Mosley will be recognized, when all is said and done, as a better fighter than Oscar DeLaHoya?

Mosley beat him in two close fights. The second was a bit closer than the first. He beat Vargas, as did Oscar. The only person to really pound him was Vernon Forrest. It makes me wonder if Trinidad would have done the same to him at Welterweight?

I always thought that Mosley was better than Oscar, and if I was to get a vote (but I don't) Oscar wouldn't be in the hall of fame, as he lost the majority of his big fights.

bigMatt · 01-29-2009, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad Bomber

I always thought that Mosley was better than Oscar, and if I was to get a vote (but I don't) Oscar wouldn't be in the hall of fame, as he lost the majority of his big fights.

I even think he benefited from favorable decisions earlier in his career. One that comes to mind right away is his WW title fight vs. Ike Quartey, which could easily have gone either way. I had Quartey narrowly winning that one.

Jersey-Jim · 01-29-2009, 03:52 PM

Oscar really benefited from the "Golden Boy" label. His rise may Sugar Ray Leonard's relationship with the mass media pale in comparison. Oscar was tough and had heart, I wouldn't want to take that away from him, but he wouldn't have gotten blasted had he fought in the Leonard, Hearns, Duran era. A prime Wilfred Benitez would have left him clueless as well.

I thought he was much better in the lighter weights (LW) where his height, reach and power gave him a real advantage. At Welterweight, he was very good, but not great.

He was one fighter who never seemed comfortable fighting any one particular style which was part of the overall problem, I would imagine.

He was great for boxing, though, as he had appeal to the casual fan. Women loved to see him and he was a good spokesperson for the sport. I'm sure he still will be with his promotional company.

PWillisTheMan · 01-29-2009, 05:00 PM

Ike was a close fight. I had it a Ike by a point. But Oscar really closed like a champion. It's hard for me to fault that nod. Same as Raffy/Izzy 3, I had marquez by a point. But when a champion digs deep like that in a close one...

Whitaker is the one that enraged me. I had that one 9-3 for Pea.

01-23-2009, 10:26 PM	#81
Jersey-Jim Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Toms River, NJ & Sarasota, FL. Posts: 2,702	Larry Holmes co-wrote a great autobiography with the late Mitch Berger. If you read the book, you'll come away with an all new appreciation for Larry Holmes. When he started giving Ali too much trouble in his training camp (circa 1974), Ali wanted him out of there. Holmes had a great jab and a lot of heart, climbing off the floor to beat Ernie Shavers, fighting with a badly injured hand against Ken Norton, and coming back from the brink of defeat multiple times during his career. Towards the end of his career, his style of jabbing with an occasional right hand became boring to watch. But he still kept winning. Tyson's style (a shorter pressure fighter) would have always given Holmes' style problems as Frazier's did with Ali. But he had a lot more heart and handled adversity much better. I thought he beat Spinks the 2nd time around, although it's his own fault he didn't knock him out. Holmes never had the kind of fan base Ali had. And today, his name isn't mentioned as often as most others are when it comes to talking about the great Heavyweight Champs. Consider this - Larry Holmes had 20 successful title defenses! And during those fights, there were more than just a few times when he had to overcome some kind of adversity to win. You can't sweep 20 defenses under the rug. Do I think he would have beat Frazier? No Do I think he would have beat Tyson? No But those are just styles that were all wrong for him. I see him beating both the Klitschkos (no - not in the same night!) He could have beat Ali - just like Norton thanks to Eddie Futch. He could split fights against Foreman, Holyfield, etc. Larry Holmes, as an old man, did well in a losing effort against Evander Holyfield. Once again - 20 defenses! Lennox Lewis had 15, but that was between mutilple title reigns and getting knocked out twice along the way. The question is; does Larry Holmes beat Lennox Lewis? __________________ *The Boxing Magazine.com: Sep. 2010 Issue* The 2010 All-Time Heavyweight Champions Tournament Notes From A Title Bout Universe Notes from my All-Time Tournaments Heavyweight \| Light Heavyweight Middleweight \| Last edited by Jersey-Jim; 01-23-2009 at 10:33 PM.

01-23-2009, 10:31 PM	#82
Infinity Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Anderson, CA Posts: 3,453	Have to agree with Jersey on Holmes. The fact is, he was a good fighter during an era that was very light on good fighters. I watched most of his fights on TV back in the day, and was never overly impressed with his actual abilities. __________________ *Infinity Boxing Association* *All Time Greatest Tourney - Infinity Style* All Time Greatest Tourney - Infinity Style - Teams *Dream Fights*

01-23-2009, 10:44 PM	#83
Jersey-Jim Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Toms River, NJ & Sarasota, FL. Posts: 2,702	That particular era was just loaded with wasted talent. Tim Witherspoon, Pinklon Thomas, even guys like Tony Tubbs and Tony Tucker. These guys were painful to watch at times. They fought about 60 seconds out of every round. And they looked good - when the were fighting! They were just missing something. It was like drinking an ice cream soda (remember those?), but the fizz was missing. These guys had good chins, good power, but they threw punches like someone was charging them extra for punch output. I remember the night Witherspoon fought Frank Bruno at Wembley. Witherspoon fought so lazy, I was hoping Bruno would knock him out. Plus, I thought it would be "cool" if someone from England won the title. His chin was so damn solid, though, Bruno couldn't put him away. Finally, after Bruno gets tired in the championship rounds, Witherspoon puts his punches together and stops him. I was totally disgusted. I was so disgusted, the night Bonecrusher Smith caught Witherspoon cold early in their fight and bounced him off the floor a few times, I was so happy - it was like winning the lottery. Well, I guess it wasn't that big - but it was big enough. __________________ *The Boxing Magazine.com: Sep. 2010 Issue* The 2010 All-Time Heavyweight Champions Tournament Notes From A Title Bout Universe Notes from my All-Time Tournaments Heavyweight \| Light Heavyweight Middleweight \| Last edited by Jersey-Jim; 01-26-2009 at 08:34 PM.

01-23-2009, 10:52 PM	#84
Infinity Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Anderson, CA Posts: 3,453	*Guess we can call it the era of the lazy heavyweights?....* __________________ *Infinity Boxing Association* *All Time Greatest Tourney - Infinity Style* All Time Greatest Tourney - Infinity Style - Teams *Dream Fights*

01-26-2009, 03:02 AM	#86
lethal liberal All Star Starter Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Logan,WV Posts: 1,145	Ali Holmes Hearns Howard Davis Jr Earnie Shavers Roy Jones Jr. I usually prefer the guys with the great left jab/right cross and that can box or punch but used to love watching Howard Davis Jr(maybe the fastest hands I have ever seen)even though he was feather fisted and Earnie Shavers even though he was pure slugger. I think Holmes,although considered a great,is still vastly underrated when compared with other great heavies. Outside of a prime Ali,I think Holmes would stand a chance to win 6 out of 10 against just about any heavyweight ever...then again,I am a huge Holmes fan! Thats what makes boxing so fun,we all have different reasons for choosing the fighters we like and the ones we cheer against. I respect anyone who straps on the gloves and steps through the ropes. Take care fellas. __________________ Member of UTBA Coach of Left Jab Inc (You have to be great to be consistently mediocre) Title Bout devotee since 79 The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have little. FDR

01-26-2009, 11:42 PM	#92
bigMatt Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kansas Posts: 2,378	My favorite fighter was anyone in the ring against Prince Naseem Hamed, ODLH, Lennox Lewis or Sugar Ray Leonard! Probably my favorite fighter period was Marvin Hagler. Sugar Shane in his prime was one of my very favorites. That guy was lightning quick. His match against ODLH was one of my favorite fights. I was also once a big fan of Marco Antonio Barrera. His fights with Eric Morales were epic. Historically, it's gotta be Mickey Walker.

01-27-2009, 05:08 AM	#94
PWillisTheMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,418	I thought Shane was better than either before the Margarito win. Though I wouldn't have argued if someone disagreed. I just feel Mosley had less holes than either one of them.

01-27-2009, 06:34 AM	#95
Chadness Minors (Double A) Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 106	Rocky Marciano Erik Morales Arturo Gatti Manny Pacquiao Ricky Hatton Kostya Tszyu Shane Mosley Recurring theme? They wanted it.

01-29-2009, 03:52 PM	#99
Jersey-Jim Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Toms River, NJ & Sarasota, FL. Posts: 2,702	Oscar really benefited from the "Golden Boy" label. His rise may Sugar Ray Leonard's relationship with the mass media pale in comparison. Oscar was tough and had heart, I wouldn't want to take that away from him, but he wouldn't have gotten blasted had he fought in the Leonard, Hearns, Duran era. A prime Wilfred Benitez would have left him clueless as well. I thought he was much better in the lighter weights (LW) where his height, reach and power gave him a real advantage. At Welterweight, he was very good, but not great. He was one fighter who never seemed comfortable fighting any one particular style which was part of the overall problem, I would imagine. He was great for boxing, though, as he had appeal to the casual fan. Women loved to see him and he was a good spokesperson for the sport. I'm sure he still will be with his promotional company. __________________ *The Boxing Magazine.com: Sep. 2010 Issue* The 2010 All-Time Heavyweight Champions Tournament Notes From A Title Bout Universe Notes from my All-Time Tournaments Heavyweight \| Light Heavyweight Middleweight \|

01-29-2009, 05:00 PM	#100
PWillisTheMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 3,418	Ike was a close fight. I had it a Ike by a point. But Oscar really closed like a champion. It's hard for me to fault that nod. Same as Raffy/Izzy 3, I had marquez by a point. But when a champion digs deep like that in a close one... Whitaker is the one that enraged me. I had that one 9-3 for Pea.