Player development is broken! Please fix!

[treedom]

Originally Posted by andymac

In your opinion. I don't think the international implementation takes much in the way of time resources (most of it was done with the database changes in 2007) and even if it does, get over it. Lots of people use that function even if you don't.

It's even useful for the Holy League -err modern MLB. There are foreign players after all, and the framework serves as a solid base for random names and origin as well as scouting.

[DaMook]

Originally Posted by RonCo

Saying something is "broken" is alarmist. It's not broken. It's just quite a bit wrong, as measured against real life studies performed by smart people who know baseball. If you honestly don't care about that, then this conversation isn't valuable to you.

Broken, wrong, it's all semantics. Whichever word you want to use, you'll always come to the same conclusion. The player development in this game isn't realistic at all, so much so that the game is crippled the in certain areas.

The issue first needs to be acknowledge by Markus and then it needs to be improved.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

It's not an opinion, it's a fact. OOTP 2006 - the Abomination - prominently featured silly international leagues but left out needed functions and featured weak models. The time - even if it was only a week - that was spent on international leagues could have been far better used to make the core game better.

Well, I'm not going to try to give you a lesson on what a fact and an opinion is because I don't think you can learn the difference if you haven't already. I think you are off-base in believing that the game should only be developed in a way that caters to the way that you want to play it and by focusing more on getting jabs in on the other features the game has you are making the focus less on improving the game and more on fighting about the way the game should be played. You aren't helping, I'm not even sure that you want to.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by andymac

You are the one starting the attacks with the generic insults and exaggerations on the way others play the game. Sure, you are entitled to your opinion but if you don't change your tone you certainly won't be contributing to the improvement of the game.

LOL, I have not insulted anyone personally in the course of this discussion. Nor, unlike some, am I known for starting pointless flame wars with deliberate personal insults that have resulted in locked threads.

If anyone at OOTP has listened to anything that we have been trying to get across, that frippery is not important but that the simulation engine and the MLB model are, then we have contributed to the improvement of the game.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by DaMook

Broken, wrong, it's all semantics. Whichever word you want to use, you'll always come to the same conclusion. The player development in this game isn't realistic at all, so much so that the game is crippled the in certain areas.

The issue first needs to be acknowledge by Markus and then it needs to be improved.

Isn't realistic at all? If the most realistic development engine in existence isn't realistic at all you are asking for the impossible. Yes, there are problems but OOTP kicks every other games ass.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by andymac

I think you are off-base in believing that the game should only be developed in a way that caters to the way that you want to play it

I confess: I do want to play an OOTP with an accurate simulation engine. I'm so sorry that you don't want to.

As for the MLB model improvement, it is an obvious necesity if you understand anything at all about marketing. This is where OOTP has lost customers, and improving the model is how it can gain them.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by andymac

You aren't helping, I'm not even sure that you want to.

The two biggest and most important things that OOTP needs are an accurate simulation engine and an accurate MLB model. I and a number of others are pushing hard for that. If that's not helping, then no one is helping.

[ashantewarrier]

You know if the game is "broken" then why continue to play. If you think that Markus is not developing the game you prefer then move on and play Baseball Mogul, APBA, Strat-o-matic, etc.

RonCo has the proper perspective I believe and Markus should consider his assessment considering the analysis he performed. Some of the other statements such as the Ghana comments are inane at best.

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by andymac

Isn't realistic at all? If the most realistic development engine in existence isn't realistic at all you are asking for the impossible. Yes, there are problems but OOTP kicks every other games ass.

I agree!

[andymac]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

LOL, I have not insulted anyone personally in the course of this discussion. Nor, unlike some, am I known for starting pointless flame wars with deliberate personal insults that have resulted in locked threads.

If anyone at OOTP has listened to anything that we have been trying to get across, that frippery is not important but that the simulation engine and the MLB model are, then we have contributed to the improvement of the game.

Personally, no, you haven't insulted anyone. You focus your insults at entire groups of game players. You insult the company that creates and markets the game by saying you could do their job better. You close your mind and ignore anything that doesn't go on inside of it. If you want your perfect game then you are going to have to make it yourself. Many people play this game and they play it different ways. That is why this game is better than any on the market. It can get much, much better but if you can't accept compromise I doubt it will ever be the game for you.

[DaMook]

Originally Posted by andymac

Isn't realistic at all? If the most realistic development engine in existence isn't realistic at all you are asking for the impossible. Yes, there are problems but OOTP kicks every other games ass.

That doesn't mean OOTP is a very good engine, it just means the others really stink. Plus this isn't a reason to not improve the game, and frankly it's a very weak argument.

If you think it's realistic for players to go from being very good to mediocre over a few days, then more power to you, but to me it's not even close to be realistic.

[DaMook]

Originally Posted by ashantewarrier

You know if the game is "broken" then why continue to play. If you think that Markus is not developing the game you prefer then move on and play Baseball Mogul, APBA, Strat-o-matic, etc.

RonCo has the proper perspective I believe and Markus should consider his assessment considering the analysis he performed. Some of the other statements such as the Ghana comments are inane at best.

RonCo is basically in agreement that there are issues with player development and that it needs to be improved. So I don't get your point here.

Plus your argument for playing another game is just weak.

OOTP is a very good game, I want to continue playing it. But just because I think it's good doesn't mean I can't want it to be better. Telling people to go play other game just because they want the game to improve is pretty damn ridiculous.

[atlbrave1]

The easiest solution hasn't even been brought up. Demand a refund. If the product isn't up to your specifications, and it appears from the threads on the board for the past month, it is not, demand a refund.

Maybe that's too harsh. Then perhaps a public apology from Markus for taking our free time and ruining it w/ faulty development curves and confusing financial models.

If you don't want a refund or an apology, then I think the only other solution is to have Markus publish testing results related to player development before releasing any further versions, so that we can know if the product works before it is published.

Also, he should probably run any new features by the longtime fans of the game (I don't know how to determine it, but post count would probably be a good starting point) so that the fans can decide what should be added, or at least be able to decide how much time should be spent on each feature.

In other words, I'm pretty sure Markus is literate. I'm pretty sure he's intelligent. Therefore I am going to assume he gets the point. If player development is broken (it may or may not be), then maybe we can get some more examples, some better data to identify where the problems are occurring. If there are more examples like Ronco's, fantastic, let's put them out there and see if there are similarities, and see if we can try and find a solution if there is a problem.

Maybe it's just me, but reading the same thread that starts with "My #1 prospect was good yesterday and sucks today -- The game is broken" followed by 40 other replies of people complaining about this, that and the other isn't making this board much fun to read, nor does it seem to be getting us any closer to a solution.

[Le Grande Orange]

All I can say is what RonCo is to player development and statistics I am to the financial system, league interactions, and transaction rules.

I'm more than willing to trust him when it comes to his analysis of the shortcomings which may exist in OOTP's current player development system, and hope that the powers-that-be will take notice of what he has to say.

But I would like to point out there are other areas which, while perhaps not quite as important as the player development/statistics area, are still nonetheless also rather important to consider.

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by DaMook

RonCo is basically in agreement that there are issues with player development and that it needs to be improved. So I don't get your point here.

Plus your argument for playing another game is just weak.

OOTP is a very good game, I want to continue playing it. But just because I think it's good doesn't mean I can't want it to be better. Telling people to go play other game just because they want the game to improve is pretty damn ridiculous.

Mook, I agree with RonCo's assessment regarding player development.

[andymac]

Originally Posted by DaMook

That doesn't mean OOTP is a very good engine, it just means the others really stink. Plus this isn't a reason to not improve the game, and frankly it's a very weak argument.

If you think it's realistic for players to go from being very good to mediocre over a few days, then more power to you, but to me it's not even close to be realistic.

Well, that is splitting hairs a bit. If it is the best there is, it is hard for me to say it is "bad". Yes, there are many improvements that can be made but as I said it is going to be impossible to make it perfect. I agree with RonCo that in order for it to get a lot better is going to take a complete change in the approach and will be really hard to do because of the historical leagues (something The Wolf doesn't seem to have a problem with).

[RonCo]

Originally Posted by andymac

Isn't realistic at all? If the most realistic development engine in existence isn't realistic at all you are asking for the impossible. Yes, there are problems but OOTP kicks every other games ass.

Not true. V2007s baseline development model can be proven to be more realistic than v9s.

Technically, I don't think you can say the best in existence, either, since we really don't have models on anyone else's.

[spitfire]

Originally Posted by andymac

I agree with RonCo that in order for it to get a lot better is going to take a complete change in the approach and will be really hard to do because of the historical leagues

A thought out of left field .... assuming for the moment that this statement is true, would there be support for two versions of OOTP? One focussed on historical replays and current rosters and another that zeroes in on fantasy (i.e. career) play. Since presumably a number of gamers would buy both versions, could mean increased profits by selling two products instead of one. And no doubt there would be lots of carry-over in the design (interface etc.) of one to the other. I dunno .... just a thought ......

[DaMook]

Originally Posted by atlbrave1

The easiest solution hasn't even been brought up. Demand a refund. If the product isn't up to your specifications, and it appears from the threads on the board for the past month, it is not, demand a refund.

Maybe that's too harsh. Then perhaps a public apology from Markus for taking our free time and ruining it w/ faulty development curves and confusing financial models.

If you don't want a refund or an apology, then I think the only other solution is to have Markus publish testing results related to player development before releasing any further versions, so that we can know if the product works before it is published.

Also, he should probably run any new features by the longtime fans of the game (I don't know how to determine it, but post count would probably be a good starting point) so that the fans can decide what should be added, or at least be able to decide how much time should be spent on each feature.

In other words, I'm pretty sure Markus is literate. I'm pretty sure he's intelligent. Therefore I am going to assume he gets the point. If player development is broken (it may or may not be), then maybe we can get some more examples, some better data to identify where the problems are occurring. If there are more examples like Ronco's, fantastic, let's put them out there and see if there are similarities, and see if we can try and find a solution if there is a problem.

Maybe it's just me, but reading the same thread that starts with "My #1 prospect was good yesterday and sucks today -- The game is broken" followed by 40 other replies of people complaining about this, that and the other isn't making this board much fun to read, nor does it seem to be getting us any closer to a solution.

Not sure why you're complaining about people complain when you can easily not read these threads. You have that freedom.

As for Markus, the last time he replied to an old thread I started about this same issue, he basically agreed that the player potential drops were abrupt and that it would be fixed in OOTP 9. Well it hasn't been address, it's actually worse.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ml#post2374588

[DaMook]

Originally Posted by ashantewarrier

Mook, I agree with RonCo's assessment regarding player development.

Then you and I agree that there are issues with it.