OOTP and Rosters...A Sad Affair - Page 5

Tony M · 08-01-2007, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkcloud4579

Dola --

I think an external editor -- given how big the mod community is here -- would be a really welcome addition. Sure it's one more thing for them to develop, but even FM/WWSM has an external data editor. I think OOTP needs one, because the biggest problem in the current way things work is, there isn't much of a way for mass collaboration that allows lots of people to do little pieces of work.

Or tell us the nuances of the structure and let us do it. I've got a good way through it by pulling the files to bits but there's things that don't work as you'd expect and that's down to the missing links. And the fact the text side and database side don't tie up on a 1-1 basis.

But as I've said before, we're unlikely* to get this, so the only way an external editor is going to come around would be from SI.

It does drive me mad when I can't get something to work the way I want (something simple like deleting all the hidden teams say in Cubby's roster set - they don't need to be there but the entanglement of the structure makes this impossible).

I don't really have the time to carry on with my digging so where I've got to in the structure is probably as far as I'll get. There may well be enough there for an editor to be written, but it would take a long while.

*I'll probably find WMD in Iraq before that happens. I know it's Markus's baby and he probably wants to keep it that way, but no-one is going to be able to write a new baseball game round his database, or if they did it'd be a couple of years by which time OOTP will have moved on.

APujols5 · 08-01-2007, 02:00 PM

Hey redsox,

I sent this to you on MSN, but not sure if you got it... With the DB stuff you have figured out, do you know if there's a way to remove someone from the Hall of Fame once they are inducted? Somehow Erich and I ended up with someone accidently in the HoF and we need to get him removed

Tony M · 08-01-2007, 03:15 PM

I did. It's very simple to remove a player from the Hall of Fame though.

Find the player under retired players or in the hall of fame, click them and, if you're commish, under Action is 'Remove Player from HOF'

APujols5 · 08-01-2007, 03:48 PM

mmm, I wonder why I am not seeing it then... Because I dont have the game open right now, but I am sure I am commish, because I can edit players.

APujols5 · 08-01-2007, 03:51 PM

Dola,

Ok found the problem, it was due to the player in question not being retired. Once I retired him it was there as an option

Tony M · 08-21-2007, 06:25 PM

I've been doing some work on various people's roster sets to try and streamline them down (most recently on NH400's) - this is what I did put in his thread but decided to move it here instead.

----

Well, I've managed to pare down the database to what is needed, and when I load up the game everything looks fine (the rosters are all correct, etc), but I can't advance a day.

The team main home page also seems to have gained the previous season leaderboards (which I can't work out why)

So even though it should be simple, I think we'll have to stick with having the 4000 teams in the database and the 60,000+ players even though 80% of them aren't used and are just sitting there slowing the game down.

Sorry for not being able to clean this up properly. I guess what I've learned about the structure is just not enough to properly deal with these issues. I'm going to take some time off from mod-writing as it does take up a lot of time, and things like this that should be simple are just proving too much. My brain is frazzled from this and I need a break.

My programs will still be available.

Hopefully many of my suggestions on how to improve the database structure will be taken on for OOTP2008 and will make writing these things much less error prone.

I suppose the only other course of action would be to FTP up the game as it is to SI and see if they can give me a clue, but that would probably give a few more clues away to me about the structure.

I'll still be popping on here regularly and if anyone has any problems with any of my stuff drop me a line and I'll try to help out.

APujols5 · 08-21-2007, 06:31 PM

The real question is why are there so many extra teams and players to start with?

For my Roster, Majors and Minors plus Murmur's work I only have 19 leagues and around 300 teams

NomarHits400 · 08-21-2007, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by APujols5

The real question is why are there so many extra teams and players to start with?

For my Roster, Majors and Minors plus Murmur's work I only have 19 leagues and around 300 teams

Actually, the real question is why are these teams hanging around when they have been "deleted".

APujols5 · 08-21-2007, 08:51 PM

Just a guess here, but I would assume Markus never expected there to be that many unused teams floating around. Why would soemthing like that even be tested? There's no reason to have so many deleted teams.

Brife71 · 08-21-2007, 11:39 PM

Well I made a league where I wanted to put all the "minor league" teams that were around in 1901 into it and have all fictional players but use the real teams through history.

To make all the different minor leagues I had to create the leagues off the major league....so it creates a team for each major league team, then I had to delete the excess teams to get the league to the number of teams that were really in the league.

The league didn't work because all of the teams I had to delete were still around but I could not access them at all. It was very irritating cause I put many hours of work into making all the minor leagues, and then on top of that was basically ignored when I explained it to Tech support and got no explanation at all as to how it may be able to be fixed

NomarHits400 · 08-21-2007, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by APujols5

Just a guess here, but I would assume Markus never expected there to be that many unused teams floating around. Why would soemthing like that even be tested? There's no reason to have so many deleted teams.

That really isn't the point though, is it. These teams are not "unused" as you refer to them. They are not inactive; they are supposedly deleted. Let me ask you something- when you delete a file in Windows, is it normal protocol for you to just allow said deleted files to accumulate in your recycle bin until you are completely out of hard drive space? This is the same thing.....These are not "hidden" teams- they are supposedly deleted.

You say your roster set is clean and free from all this...Where is the download link for this roster set so we can all enjoy it? Have you added feeder teams yet? All I can say is should you decide to delete a league for any reason you will be happy to know that it is still with you in spirit.

APujols5 · 08-22-2007, 12:16 AM

Not sure why you would add a league and delete it though? That's my point. Just seems like bad planning.

Tony M · 08-22-2007, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by APujols5

The real question is why are there so many extra teams and players to start with?

For my Roster, Majors and Minors plus Murmur's work I only have 19 leagues and around 300 teams

That's what the export will show, but I hazard a guess that there will definitely be more than 300 teams in your teams.dat file, and probably more than 19 leagues in your world.dat file (although if you say you haven't deleted any, you may be correct with that)

I haven't checked it out for players as to whether a delete actually does delete them or just mark them as deleted - it's a bit like FoxPro in that regard (except that there isn't a PACK command in OOTP)

Tony M · 08-22-2007, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by APujols5

Just a guess here, but I would assume Markus never expected there to be that many unused teams floating around. Why would soemthing like that even be tested? There's no reason to have so many deleted teams.

Probably because without knowing the structure you'd never know they were there unless an error popped up referencing one of them.

Tony M · 08-22-2007, 03:02 AM

It saves teams even before the game starts

If you start a new fictional league it will create a 4-4 4-4 split (16 teams)
I then changed it to 1 subleague 4-4 (8 teams) before making it 1 division 4 (4 teams) before clicking the Start Game button.

On checking the teams.dat file after starting the game there were 28 teams in there (handily equalling 16+8+4)

APujols5 · 08-22-2007, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redsoxford

It saves teams even before the game starts

If you start a new fictional league it will create a 4-4 4-4 split (16 teams)
I then changed it to 1 subleague 4-4 (8 teams) before making it 1 division 4 (4 teams) before clicking the Start Game button.

On checking the teams.dat file after starting the game there were 28 teams in there (handily equalling 16+8+4)

I am not disagreeing with you, but I will have to check that in the AM. I have never noticed it before.

Tony M · 08-22-2007, 03:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by APujols5

I am not disagreeing with you, but I will have to check that in the AM. I have never noticed it before.

What's the AM?

I think I know why (though Markus would know more) records don't get deleted per se. In OOTP 6 and earlier each record was allocated a certain amount of space so you'd know exactly where each record started. In 2006 and 2007 they've been given ID fields and a variable length, but there is still this notion of a secondary ID being based on its location within a file.

When I was tidying up NH's set, I deleted all the leagues that weren't in use and set up a mapping of old league id to new league id (so that the new ones ran from 100 to 125). I then deleted the teams that weren't active and set up a mapping of old ids to new ids (so that the new ones ran from 1 to 480 - with 1-30 being MLB so that the history records matched up). I then deleted all players with 0 as surname and forename id and any player who wasn't on a team and who wasn't a free agent and who wasn't a hidden overseas talent, and set up a mapping to remap their IDs.

I then wrote code to go through the tables to realign all references to these three IDs (and there's a lot of them).

The game loads up a lot quicker and you can go round all the teams and history and stuff and see it all there, but you just can't advance a day.

I may be old school database person but if you supply an ID field to a table you shouldn't then use a different field as the primary key.

Tony M · 08-22-2007, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by APujols5

I am not disagreeing with you, but I will have to check that in the AM. I have never noticed it before.

It does get to an extreme stage. I started a fictional game 4-4 4-4 and decided to make it 8-8 8-8. When I clicked Start Game I had 122 teams in teams.dat (the original 16, the 20 that were there at 8-4 4-4, the 24 that were there at 8-8 4-4, the 28 at 8-8 8-4 and the final 32 and the two all star teams) 16+20+24+28+32+2 = 122

So can you imagine how many teams get created if you start a historic league and in 2007 decide to add in the minors. For example with the International League.

You'd get 30 teams added automatically which would 'delete' when you changed to 1 sub league (leaving 14 teams). You'd then change East to North and increase it to 6 teams, making 15 in total, and 'deleting' another 14. You'd then change Central to South and decrease it to 4 teams, making 14 in total and 'deleting' another 15.

So to add International adds 14 proper teams to the database and 59 'deleted' teams to the game.

Mike D · 08-22-2007, 04:01 AM

I'm guessing he means he's going to check it in the morning

APujols5 · 08-22-2007, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redsoxford

It does get to an extreme stage. I started a fictional game 4-4 4-4 and decided to make it 8-8 8-8. When I clicked Start Game I had 122 teams in teams.dat (the original 16, the 20 that were there at 8-4 4-4, the 24 that were there at 8-8 4-4, the 28 at 8-8 8-4 and the final 32 and the two all star teams) 16+20+24+28+32+2 = 122

So can you imagine how many teams get created if you start a historic league and in 2007 decide to add in the minors. For example with the International League.

You'd get 30 teams added automatically which would 'delete' when you changed to 1 sub league (leaving 14 teams). You'd then change East to North and increase it to 6 teams, making 15 in total, and 'deleting' another 14. You'd then change Central to South and decrease it to 4 teams, making 14 in total and 'deleting' another 15.

So to add International adds 14 proper teams to the database and 59 'deleted' teams to the game.

I am going to have to disagree with you on this, I can't find any evidence of these phantom teams anywhere in the file I am building. It's a base that was given to me by Erich, so he would have to speak on how it was built. But the only deleted teams I see are the ones that should be there for stats purposes.

08-01-2007, 03:15 PM	#83
Tony M Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Here Posts: 6,156	I did. It's very simple to remove a player from the Hall of Fame though. Find the player under retired players or in the hall of fame, click them and, if you're commish, under Action is 'Remove Player from HOF' __________________ This signature is intentionally blank

08-21-2007, 06:25 PM	#86
Tony M Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Here Posts: 6,156	I've been doing some work on various people's roster sets to try and streamline them down (most recently on NH400's) - this is what I did put in his thread but decided to move it here instead. ---- Well, I've managed to pare down the database to what is needed, and when I load up the game everything looks fine (the rosters are all correct, etc), but I can't advance a day. The team main home page also seems to have gained the previous season leaderboards (which I can't work out why) So even though it should be simple, I think we'll have to stick with having the 4000 teams in the database and the 60,000+ players even though 80% of them aren't used and are just sitting there slowing the game down. Sorry for not being able to clean this up properly. I guess what I've learned about the structure is just not enough to properly deal with these issues. I'm going to take some time off from mod-writing as it does take up a lot of time, and things like this that should be simple are just proving too much. My brain is frazzled from this and I need a break. My programs will still be available. Hopefully many of my suggestions on how to improve the database structure will be taken on for OOTP2008 and will make writing these things much less error prone. I suppose the only other course of action would be to FTP up the game as it is to SI and see if they can give me a clue, but that would probably give a few more clues away to me about the structure. I'll still be popping on here regularly and if anyone has any problems with any of my stuff drop me a line and I'll try to help out. __________________ This signature is intentionally blank

08-21-2007, 06:31 PM	#87
APujols5 Banned Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: CP Indiana Posts: 1,667 Infractions: 1/3 (3)	The real question is why are there so many extra teams and players to start with? For my Roster, Majors and Minors plus Murmur's work I only have 19 leagues and around 300 teams Last edited by APujols5; 08-21-2007 at 06:34 PM.

08-22-2007, 03:02 AM	#95
Tony M Global Moderator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Here Posts: 6,156	It saves teams even before the game starts If you start a new fictional league it will create a 4-4 4-4 split (16 teams) I then changed it to 1 subleague 4-4 (8 teams) before making it 1 division 4 (4 teams) before clicking the Start Game button. On checking the teams.dat file after starting the game there were 28 teams in there (handily equalling 16+8+4) __________________ This signature is intentionally blank

08-22-2007, 04:01 AM	#99
Mike D Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: In a van, down by the river Posts: 2,802	I'm guessing he means he's going to check it in the morning __________________ Sometimes the best laid plans will never get you laid the way you plan.

08-01-2007, 02:00 PM	#82
APujols5 Banned Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: CP Indiana Posts: 1,667 Infractions: 1/3 (3)	Hey redsox, I sent this to you on MSN, but not sure if you got it... With the DB stuff you have figured out, do you know if there's a way to remove someone from the Hall of Fame once they are inducted? Somehow Erich and I ended up with someone accidently in the HoF and we need to get him removed

08-01-2007, 03:48 PM	#84
APujols5 Banned Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: CP Indiana Posts: 1,667 Infractions: 1/3 (3)	mmm, I wonder why I am not seeing it then... Because I dont have the game open right now, but I am sure I am commish, because I can edit players.

08-01-2007, 03:51 PM	#85
APujols5 Banned Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: CP Indiana Posts: 1,667 Infractions: 1/3 (3)	Dola, Ok found the problem, it was due to the player in question not being retired. Once I retired him it was there as an option

08-21-2007, 08:51 PM	#89
APujols5 Banned Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: CP Indiana Posts: 1,667 Infractions: 1/3 (3)	Just a guess here, but I would assume Markus never expected there to be that many unused teams floating around. Why would soemthing like that even be tested? There's no reason to have so many deleted teams.

08-21-2007, 11:39 PM	#90
Brife71 Major Leagues Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Flint, MI Posts: 454	Well I made a league where I wanted to put all the "minor league" teams that were around in 1901 into it and have all fictional players but use the real teams through history. To make all the different minor leagues I had to create the leagues off the major league....so it creates a team for each major league team, then I had to delete the excess teams to get the league to the number of teams that were really in the league. The league didn't work because all of the teams I had to delete were still around but I could not access them at all. It was very irritating cause I put many hours of work into making all the minor leagues, and then on top of that was basically ignored when I explained it to Tech support and got no explanation at all as to how it may be able to be fixed

08-22-2007, 12:16 AM	#92
APujols5 Banned Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: CP Indiana Posts: 1,667 Infractions: 1/3 (3)	Not sure why you would add a league and delete it though? That's my point. Just seems like bad planning.