Duke Lacrosse

[enuttage]

Originally Posted by marc

They already haven't. Particularly the innocent ones as you can not convince me that 46 players raped her, she would have died.


All I'm saying is that if I'm a senior Lacrosse player who has worked my ass off for the last 4 years to put myself in a position to win a national championship and my season gets cancelled based on what are currently "allegations", I'm pretty pissed off.

Pissed off enough to start asking around to see if you should be turning in teammates?

[marc]

Dola,

This isn't football or basketball where they have the opportunity to make millions of dollars playing Lacrosse after college.

For these seniors this is the pinnacle of their athletic careers and what they have been working hard to acheive for probably about 15 years.

To throw away their chance to accomplish this over what is at this point only allegations is ridiculous.

Innocent until proven guilty. There are surely a lot of innocent members on this team even if the allegations are true.

[marc]

Originally Posted by enuttage

Pissed off enough to start asking around to see if you should be turning in teammates?

Probably. Again, if the allegations are true this is horrible and it very well may be that all of them knew about it and some just aren't talking even if they weren't invovled.

But there's just no way 46 players raped this girl, she would have died, plain and simple. So regardless of the allegations being true or false, innocent kids are suffering for this.

[marc]

Without stirring up a political hornets nest, this whole punish somebody, anybody, before the facts come out BS is the same thing that got us into our current situation in Iraq.

[enuttage]

Originally Posted by marc

Probably. Again, if the allegations are true this is horrible and it very well may be that all of them knew about it and some just aren't talking even if they weren't invovled.

But there's just no way 46 players raped this girl, she would have died, plain and simple. So regardless of the allegations being true or false, innocent kids are suffering for this.

You're right, I think. But how innocent are they if they witnessed a crime and are going to stay hush hush about it?

If this happened, then I suspect all 46 weren't involved, but that certainly more than three were.

[marc]

Originally Posted by enuttage

You're right, I think. But how innocent are they if they witnessed a crime and are going to stay hush hush about it?

If this happened, then I suspect all 46 weren't involved, but that certainly more than three were.

They certainly should stand up and say something if they witnessed this, I'm certainly not going to try and argue that. But I find it hard to believe that all 46 were there and if they were then why is the African-American player not being lumped into this as well. Say she was raped by 5 players and the whole team was there watching, are you saying that 46 of the 47 players were there and the black guy was at his own place just hanging out by himself?

It just seems ridiculous that because the alleged rapist was white, and almost every player is white, that the whole team is being punished before charges have even been made.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by Dale And Eli's Dad

Only if they're doing it with the delibrate intent to make money and/or enhance their position using their bodies to create sexual desires in other people. That's a big difference.

Sorry, but I can't equate "using their bodies to create sexual desires" with using their bodies to satisfy sexual desires.

Ask a woman if she'd prefer to put on a skimpy outfit and dance for some dude or if she'd like to have sex with said stranger and I believe the majority would choose the former.

[QuestGAV]

Originally Posted by marc

It just seems ridiculous that because the alleged rapist was white, and almost every player is white, that the whole team is being punished before charges have even been made.

To file charges you have to know who it was. They'll know who it was when the DNA results come back. In the meantime there are at least three players on that team who know who raped her. If it's so important that the team play those three guys ought to step up and turn themselves in so that the rest of the team can have what they fought for. Those three rapists on the team are holding the entire team back, don't try to deflect responsibility onto someone else.

[enuttage]

Originally Posted by marc

They certainly should stand up and say something if they witnessed this, I'm certainly not going to try and argue that. But I find it hard to believe that all 46 were there and if they were then why is the African-American player not being lumped into this as well. Say she was raped by 5 players and the whole team was there watching, are you saying that 46 of the 47 players were there and the black guy was at his own place just hanging out by himself?

It just seems ridiculous that because the alleged rapist was white, and almost every player is white, that the whole team is being punished before charges have even been made.

No, no. You're absolutely right, IMO.

[enuttage]

Originally Posted by QuestGAV

To file charges you have to know who it was. They'll know who it was when the DNA results come back. In the meantime there are at least three players on that team who know who raped her. If it's so important that the team play those three guys ought to step up and turn themselves in so that the rest of the team can have what they fought for. Those three rapists on the team are holding the entire team back, don't try to deflect responsibility onto someone else.

^^^

Said better than I could.

[marc]

Originally Posted by QuestGAV

To file charges you have to know who it was. They'll know who it was when the DNA results come back. In the meantime there are at least three players on that team who know who raped her. If it's so important that the team play those three guys ought to step up and turn themselves in so that the rest of the team can have what they fought for. Those three rapists on the team are holding the entire team back, don't try to deflect responsibility onto someone else.

Again, ALLEGEDLY raped her. We run a democracy here where people are innocent until proven guilty.

There is no deflection of responsibility, if I say I saw you molesting a child the other day and your boss fires you immediately how fair is that?

[marc]

Dola,


WHEN the DNA results come back, THAT is when you make the decision on whether to cancel the season and things of that nature, when you actually have the proper information in front of you to make charges, not a moment sooner.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by <Pion>

Sorry, but I can't equate "using their bodies to create sexual desires" with using their bodies to satisfy sexual desires.

Ask a woman if she'd prefer to put on a skimpy outfit and dance for some dude or if she'd like to have sex with said stranger and I believe the majority would choose the former.

It's not hard to understand. Either situation involves a woman playing on the sexual desires of another person.

[marc]

Originally Posted by Dale And Eli's Dad

It's not hard to understand. Either situation involves a woman playing on the sexual desires of another person.

I agree. Being a stripper isn't very far above being a prostitute that's for sure.

That being said, no woman should ever have to go through being raped regardless of how "immoral" their profession is.

The 2 worst things a man can do is rape a woman and molest a child.

I have much more sympathy for murderers than I do for rapists and child molestors.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by marc

Again, ALLEGEDLY raped her. We run a democracy here where people are innocent until proven guilty.

There is no deflection of responsibility, if I say I saw you molesting a child the other day and your boss fires you immediately how fair is that?

BINGO.

Right now, there is no proven crime here. No one has been charged and an alleged crime is being investigated. It's entirely possible the woman in question is lying. We aren't going to know until the facts come out but to punish someone because they're white and on a lacrosse team is horrific.

There's zero difference between this and a woman saying a black football player hit her and suspending the entire football team because of it when the girl couldn't identify which player hit her.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by enuttage

You're right, I think. But how innocent are they if they witnessed a crime and are going to stay hush hush about it?

If this happened, then I suspect all 46 weren't involved, but that certainly more than three were.

Agreed. Wasn't there already a case where the people that watched/cheered a rape were brought to trial as accomplices (the real life case that the movie "The Accused" was based on)?

[Jason]

Originally Posted by marc

I agree. Being a stripper isn't very far above being a prostitute that's for sure.

That being said, no woman should ever have to go through being raped regardless of how "immoral" their profession is.

The 2 worst things a man can do is rape a woman and molest a child.

I have much more sympathy for murderers than I do for rapists and child molestors.

Absolutely...but that's not what I said Skip was right on. I'm agreeing that the same basic carnal desires are played to by the stripper and the prostitute. The line is how far they take those desires with another person.

Rape is an entirely different subject than if strippers and prostitutes play to the same part of human nature.

[marc]

Originally Posted by Dale And Eli's Dad

Absolutely...but that's not what I said Skip was right on. I'm agreeing that the same basic carnal desires are played to by the stripper and the prostitute. The line is how far they take those desires with another person.

Rape is an entirely different subject than if strippers and prostitutes play to the same part of human nature.

Agreed. I just read the first part of my post and it could have come off as being sensetive to the rapists if the crime occurred and didn't want to make it look that way.

[<Pion>]

Originally Posted by Dale And Eli's Dad

It's not hard to understand. Either situation involves a woman playing on the sexual desires of another person.

Maybe not hard to understand using male logic. But again, go ask a woman the question I mentioned in the post.

There are degrees to things like that. A woman who might flash you very well could draw the line at letting you cop a feel. A woman who will do a sexy dance in skimpy clothes could draw the line at letting you have sex with her.

[QuestGAV]

Originally Posted by marc

Again, ALLEGEDLY raped her. We run a democracy here where people are innocent until proven guilty.

There is no deflection of responsibility, if I say I saw you molesting a child the other day and your boss fires you immediately how fair is that?

Again, there is pretty clear evidence she was raped in their bathroom. They are individually innocent until proven guilty. There is enough evidence that the team is involved that the team's activities should be restricted until things get sorted out. If I had a party with some friends at work and one of the party host's kids got raped while we were there it would be entirely appropriate for us to all be put on leave until things got sorted out, ESPECIALLY if there was reason to believe that there were people who knew something about it who hadn't fulfilled their responsibility to share what they know yet.