Goodbye Davis, not sad to see you go

[sebastian0622]

Originally Posted by mh2365

Iowa has never been able to recruit talented players there and Alford is doing the same thing Tom Davis and Lute Olsen did there, which is win games with inferior talent.

Not really. Brunner, Horner and Haluska were all top-50ish players coming out of high school (and I mean overall, not at their positions). Davis won with inferior talent. Alford has not won--he's had a far worse record than Davis in the Big Ten--with superior talent to what Davis usually worked with. I have no idea why you'd logically think that Iowa has low talent right now? Stereotypes?

He has made a post season tournament every year he has been there and that is an accomplishment at Iowa.

This comment really takes your credibility away in terms of talking about Hawkeye hoops. You're selling the Iowa program way, way short if you think that just making a postseason tourney is an accomplishment. Alford is going on 3 NCAA berths in 7 years. Here are the seasons going back to '78 in which the Hawkeye have made the NCAA's. Alford has basically missed as many NCAA tournies since he's been here as Iowa had missed the 20 years before him:

(Olsen)
78-79
80-81
81-82
82-83
(Raveling)
84-85
85-86
86-87
(Davis)
87-88
88-89
90-91
91-92
92-93
95-96
96-97
98-99
(Alford)
00-01
04-05
05-06

Before Alford, Iowa making the NCAA tourney was almost a given. We've made it in under half of Alford's years, which is unheard of. Davis made it in 8 out of 11 years. Raveling all three. Olsen several in a row before that. The NIT is a huge failure for Iowa Hoops. Like I said, you're selling Iowa way short:

PHP Code:

1976     Lute Olson     19-10     
1977    Lute Olson    20-7    
1978    Lute Olson    12-15    
1979    Lute Olson    20-8    
1980    Lute Olson    23-10    
1981    Lute Olson    21-7    
1982    Lute Olson    21-8    
1983    Lute Olson    22-9    
1984    George Raveling    13-15    
1985    George Raveling    21-11    
1986    George Raveling    20-12
1987     Tom Davis     30-5
1988    Tom Davis    24-10
1989    Tom Davis    23-10    
1990    Tom Davis    12-16    
1991    Tom Davis    21-11    
1992    Tom Davis    19-11    
1993    Tom Davis    23-9    
1994    Tom Davis    11-16    
1995    Tom Davis    21-12    
1996    Tom Davis    23-9    
1997    Tom Davis    22-10    
1998    Tom Davis    20-11
1999    Tom Davis    20-10
2000    Steve Alford    14-16    
2001    Steve Alford    23-12    
2002    Steve Alford    19-16    
2003    Steve Alford    17-14    
2004    Steve Alford    16-13    
2005    Steve Alford    21-12 


I believe Iowa fans have unrealistic expectations that their team should contend for the Big Ten title every year and be a Final Four contender every year.

I'll agree with some of this. Some Iowa fans have unfair expectations. They see Ferentz making Iowa a Big-Ten title contender year in and year out and expect it from the hoops team. The problem is recruiting, though. There aren't too many hoops diamonds in the rough, and Iowa hasn't gotten a ton of top-shelf hoops talent since Horner/Brunner/Haluska. But the vast majority of Iowa fans just want to see Iowa in the tourney almost every year like we're used to.

Iowa is having a great year with little or no talent, that is coaching and Alford has done it every year there.

Wrong and wrong. I want Alford to stay, but both parts of this compound sentence are wrong. Alford has come a long way as a coach, and he's also got great talent this year. If Horner had been fully healthy this year, he'd have two Big-Ten MVP candidates on the team. Brunner and Horner are both playing at that level right now. Haluska is a lock for an all-Big Ten team, and Hansen has a legit chance of a similar accolade.

I just think they need someone in there who understands that it is Indiana basketball and going two straight years out of the Ncaa tourney is completely unacceptable.

Like it is at Iowa.

[mh2365]

I can see I was somewhat wrong ... but honestly do you have a pro player on that team? What you have are a bunch of guys who know how to play within their capabilities and within a team format .... that is coaching. Davis has a bunch of guys with athletic ability who look completely lost on offense and aren't quite sure what to make of this whole "team ball" fad, once again that is coaching.

I grew up near Alford, lost to him in highschool. Loved him at IU. He did great at Manchester (? didn't look it up), SW Missouri St. IMO Iowa. So I may be abit of a homer on him. Davis is a very lousy coach who was supposed to be a great recruiter. Well all he seems to recruit are point guards who can't play point guard. Yeah DJ White was a nice recruit but anyone else? Wright would have been fantastic with some coaching. So two guys in 6 years at IU?

[sebastian0622]

Originally Posted by mh2365

I can see I was somewhat wrong ... but honestly do you have a pro player on that team? What you have are a bunch of guys who know how to play within their capabilities and within a team format .... that is coaching. Davis has a bunch of guys with athletic ability who look completely lost on offense and aren't quite sure what to make of this whole "team ball" fad, once again that is coaching.

I grew up near Alford, lost to him in highschool. Loved him at IU. He did great at Manchester (? didn't look it up), SW Missouri St. IMO Iowa. So I may be abit of a homer on him. Davis is a very lousy coach who was supposed to be a great recruiter. Well all he seems to recruit are point guards who can't play point guard. Yeah DJ White was a nice recruit but anyone else? Wright would have been fantastic with some coaching. So two guys in 6 years at IU?

Davis is a lousy coach. I won't argue that!

Iowa has a few guys who have shots to be role players in the league. Certainly no locks. But the NBA is basically an entirely different sport. You could win probably win a college national championship this year assembled out of guys who will never play in the NBA. Brunner is an extremely talented college hoops player. His style/size just doesn't fit the NBA game. But there is no way I'd call him or Horner undertalented college hoops players.

Kind of like Brad Banks and Seneca Wallace and Eric Crouch. You'd be crazy to say they were untalented college players just because they aren't big time QB's in the NFL. The NFL and NBA are basically different sports than their NCAA counterparts.

So what you have are a bunch of guys who are very, very talented for the level of play and who have also played together for a long time, not an undertalented team riding its coach.

[mh2365]

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

So what you have are a bunch of guys who are very, very talented for the level of play and who have also played together for a long time, not an undertalented team riding its coach.

I'll agree for the most part but I say it's more you have very solid players who have played in the same system for a while and run the system well ... the system is coaching. There isn't a guy in Iowa's starting 5 that I wouldn't take on my team right now, but I'd like Alford to be the one coaching them

[mh2365]

Just curious to all those that think that IU fans are racist or Knight loyalist or unrealistic in what we expect in a coach, does the fact that we are about to miss our third straight NCAA tourney for the first time in 35 years mean anything?

That would be unacceptable at UNC, Duke, UCLA, Kansas and several other top programs so why isn't that unacceptable at IU .... I guarentee if Bill Self missed 3 straight tourneys he'd be gone.

It seems the national media wants to crucify the IU fans for wanting Davis out ... do they not realize that INDIANA UNIVERSITY is 29-29 over the last two years and has missed the NCAA tourney two years in a row, one year not even going to the NIT. In what alternate universe is that acceptable?

I could give a crap if Davis was red, blue, green or purple ... he is a crappy coach and someone who was supposed to be able to recruit. He has gotten no one ... where is McRoberts? Where is Oden? Where is any top Indiana recruit in the last few years? At out of state schools that's where. So he can't coach, he can't recruit, he folds under pressure, and he only cares about himself. Just curious if those are the reasons I'm happy he is gone, why am I a racist for being happy?

So that's where we are at these days, I can't hate a crappy coach who is black without being a racist, but Bryant Gumble can say he won't watch the winter olympics because they are too white and he is a hero?

Okay ... Mike off his soap box now .....

[TC Dale]

Great link about the Bloomington Newspaper Online Voting on who should be the next coach...

Surprising Alford is fourth. Here is the link. Go vote yourself!

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/htoxtras/iumbb.php

[bigphesta]

as an Iowan.... Let me help Alford pack his bags.

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by TC Dale

Go vote yourself!

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/htoxtras/iumbb.php

Where's the Dave Bliss option?

[mh2365]

Originally Posted by bigphesta

as an Iowan.... Let me help Alford pack his bags.

Please do .... I think the first two in that poll are viable options. Majerus is only good for 2 or 3 years. Go with someone in better shape or younger. Our next coach needs a 20 year life span.

[TC Dale]

Originally Posted by darkhorse
Where's the Dave Bliss option?


lol You would think he would be in there. I was surprised they had Quinn Buckner in there. He hasn't done a lot of coaching. Or what about former Kentucky coach Rick Pitino? Larry Brown? There are a lot of choices, surprised those two didn't make it.

[TC Dale]

Who would you bring in if Alford left? That team will look like Purdue next year the way some of the posters on various forums talk about how bad they are slated to be next year.

The Iowa job would be a good solid job for someone wanting to deal with fans that believe their overachieving teams should be in the Big Ten and NCAA's every year...

They are almost as bad as the IU fans.

[andymac]

I think there is a legitimate chance that Mike Anderson and Mike Davis are just going to switch jobs after this season.

[The Melancholic]

Originally Posted by mh2365

That would be unacceptable at UNC, Duke, UCLA, Kansas and several other top programs so why isn't that unacceptable at IU .... I guarentee if Bill Self missed 3 straight tourneys he'd be gone.

Because Indiana isn't UNC, Duke, UCLA or Kansas and wasn't when Mike Davis took over, either. Indiana had become a so-so, one-and-done NCAA tournament program for the last 8-10 years or more of the Knight era, a fact the loyalists are trying to whitewash by puttting the slide to mediocrity all on Davis' hands. They're harboring delusions of grandeur that Davis took over Kentucky and left it as Penn State. Yeah, the program is slightly worse off from 2000, but I could've predicted it in 1999, Davis or no, that this was the direction it was headed.

('04 grad, btw, not that it matters.

[marc]

Originally Posted by The Melancholic

Because Indiana isn't UNC, Duke, UCLA or Kansas and wasn't when Mike Davis took over, either. Indiana had become a so-so, one-and-done NCAA tournament program for the last 8-10 years or more of the Knight era, a fact the loyalists are trying to whitewash by puttting the slide to mediocrity all on Davis' hands. They're harboring delusions of grandeur that Davis took over Kentucky and left it as Penn State. Yeah, the program is slightly worse off from 2000, but I could've predicted it in 1999, Davis or no, that this was the direction it was headed.

('04 grad, btw, not that it matters.

Wow I really have to disagree with this statement. Indiana is a top 10 program, period. They should expect better than these last few seasons.

[mh2365]

Originally Posted by marc

Wow I really have to disagree with this statement. Indiana is a top 10 program, period. They should expect better than these last few seasons.

You and I don't agree on alot ... but here we do.

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by The Melancholic

Indiana had become a so-so, one-and-done NCAA tournament program for the last 8-10 years or more of the Knight era, a fact the loyalists are trying to whitewash by puttting the slide to mediocrity all on Davis' hands.

Probably, because the "fact" is poppycock. Also, since arriving at Texas Tech, the basketball program has enjoyed an unprecedented run of success. Knight is still a fine coach.


2000 # Indiana record: 20-9, 10-6 Big Ten
# Postseason: No. 6 seed in East Region. Lost to No. 11 Pepperdine 77-57 in first round of NCAA Tournament

1999 # Indiana record: 23-11, 9-7 Big Ten
# Postseason: No. 6 seed in South Region. Lost to No. 3 St. John's 86-61 in second round of NCAA Tournament

1998 # Indiana record: 20-12, 9-7 Big Ten
# Postseason: No. 7 seed in East Region. Lost to No. 2 Connecticut 78-68 in second round of NCAA Tournament.

1997 # Indiana record: 22-11, 9-9 Big Ten
# Postseason: No. 8 seed in East Region. Lost to No. 9 Colorado 80-62 in first round of NCAA Tournament.

1996 # Indiana record: 19-12, 12-6 Big Ten
# Postseason: No. 6 seed in Southeast Region. Lost to No. 11 Boston College 64-51 in first round of NCAA Tournament.

1995 # Indiana record: 19-12, 11-7 Big Ten
# Postseason: No. 9 seed in West Region. Lost to No. 8 Missouri 65-60 in first round of NCAA Tournament.

1994 # Indiana record: 21-9, 12-6
# Postseason: No. 5 seed in East Region. Lost to No. 9 Boston College 77-68 in Sweet 16.

1993 # Indiana record: 31-4, 17-1 Big Ten (conference champions)
# Postseason: No. 1 seed in Midwest. Lost to No. 2 Kansas 83-77 in regional final.

1992 # Indiana record: 27-7, 14-4 Big Ten
# Postseason: No. 2 seed in West Region. Lost to Duke 81-78 in national semifinals

1991 # Indiana record: 29-5, 15-3 Big Ten (conference co-champions)
# Postseason: No. 2 seed in Southeast. Lost to No. 3 Kansas 83-65 in Sweet 16.

[QuestGAV]

So for the previous six years they had not won more than one game in the tournament. That hardly places them as a top 10 program. Knight was getting complacent at Indiana and the program was getting stagnant.

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by QuestGAV

So for the previous six years they had not won more than one game in the tournament. That hardly places them as a top 10 program. Knight was getting complacent at Indiana and the program was getting stagnant.

Knight complacent? He's many things, that ain't one of 'em.

Every program has downturns. If you make the tournament every year during that down cycle, that's a pretty good indication of the strength of the program.

[mh2365]

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Probably, because the "fact" is poppycock. Also, since arriving at Texas Tech, the basketball program has enjoyed an unprecedented run of success. Knight is still a fine coach.


2000 # Indiana record: 20-9, 10-6 Big Ten
# Postseason: No. 6 seed in East Region. Lost to No. 11 Pepperdine 77-57 in first round of NCAA Tournament

1999 # Indiana record: 23-11, 9-7 Big Ten
# Postseason: No. 6 seed in South Region. Lost to No. 3 St. John's 86-61 in second round of NCAA Tournament

1998 # Indiana record: 20-12, 9-7 Big Ten
# Postseason: No. 7 seed in East Region. Lost to No. 2 Connecticut 78-68 in second round of NCAA Tournament.

1997 # Indiana record: 22-11, 9-9 Big Ten
# Postseason: No. 8 seed in East Region. Lost to No. 9 Colorado 80-62 in first round of NCAA Tournament.

1996 # Indiana record: 19-12, 12-6 Big Ten
# Postseason: No. 6 seed in Southeast Region. Lost to No. 11 Boston College 64-51 in first round of NCAA Tournament.

1995 # Indiana record: 19-12, 11-7 Big Ten
# Postseason: No. 9 seed in West Region. Lost to No. 8 Missouri 65-60 in first round of NCAA Tournament.

1994 # Indiana record: 21-9, 12-6
# Postseason: No. 5 seed in East Region. Lost to No. 9 Boston College 77-68 in Sweet 16.

1993 # Indiana record: 31-4, 17-1 Big Ten (conference champions)
# Postseason: No. 1 seed in Midwest. Lost to No. 2 Kansas 83-77 in regional final.

1992 # Indiana record: 27-7, 14-4 Big Ten
# Postseason: No. 2 seed in West Region. Lost to Duke 81-78 in national semifinals

1991 # Indiana record: 29-5, 15-3 Big Ten (conference co-champions)
# Postseason: No. 2 seed in Southeast. Lost to No. 3 Kansas 83-65 in Sweet 16.

I notice there isn't any back to back 15-14 missed tournament, 14-15 missed all tournaments in that stretch.

[QuestGAV]

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Knight complacent? He's many things, that ain't one of 'em.

Every program has downturns. If you make the tournament every year during that down cycle, that's a pretty good indication of the strength of the program.

They're not a bad program but that's a pretty significant downward trend. The list you gave certainly doesn't indicate that they were a top 10 program at that point in time.