What names would you like to see in OOTP:BM?

[jcurtis423]

Originally Posted by RBLwebguy

From what I seen so far from Steve's work is really fantastic, and I assure you I am putting the same thought into it. The thread was meant for suggestions, not to start a flame war.

I don't think there's any flame war-ing (ed-is that a word?) going on here, just people who are very passionate about the hard work that they have put so much time into. Nothing wrong with a little disagreement here and there, that's how some of the best ideas can come about! Do you think that Markus Heinsohn and Marc Duffy have not had at least one good argument over something they have disagreed on? And I'm sure that they worked out their disagreement and an even better idea maybe could have come out of it!

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by battists

Malleus, I found a great governmental census data set for South Korean surnames on the ROK web site, including frequencies, so I think we should be golden there. If you have any leads on Korean first names, that would be excellent.

From what I've read, South Korean names are frequently a combination of two characters, and that pride is taken in making them unique, meaning there will be no "John" there. I'll keep looking around for that, but any leads are greatly welcomed!

I have a lot of Korean friends who had promised to help me when I did a Korean name file set; I'll ask them.

[battists]

Originally Posted by theasfl

I think the best way for the game's name files to be done is country by country considering each league has a country of origin; and being able to toggle each nation when the game is creating names would be ideal in my opinion.

Leaving MD to answer the first part of your question. But regarding the above, theasfl, you are totally in synch with what I am trying to accomplish.

Since there will ultimately come a time when we run out of time, my approach is this:

1. Look for census data by individual country (targeting an individual list for each country).
2. If that fails, look for data by region (ex. Latin America vs Spain)
3. If that fails, look for data by origin (Spanish)

My guess is the end result will be a mix. For example, we may end up with segmented English names (separate data for U.S. and U.K. for example), while we have grouped names for other areas such as Slavic, Arabic, or African names. (The likelihood of usable African name data broken down by country is essentially nil.)

I hope this answers your question, and I hope that I can help convince Markus to implement it in this fashion! I can only attest as to how I am compiling the data!

Which reminds me, MD, is the Hispanic set available for viewing yet, or is that still a work in progress?

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by RBLwebguy

From what I seen so far from Steve's work is really fantastic, and I assure you I am putting the same thought into it. The thread was meant for suggestions, not to start a flame war.

I'm not flaming anyone and I am not going to fight with anyone; I just won't see my work misused or abused and it's my right to do that. On the other hand, I'll bet money that Gforce (who is permanently on my Ignore list) has been taking shots at me...not that I'll never see them.

Let's focus on the work here, guys, and nothing else. This is important.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by battists

Which reminds me, MD, is the Hispanic set available for viewing yet, or is that still a work in progress?

It's done, and a couple of guys on the board have copies. I'll get a copy to you before I get the Euro set to you.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by disposableheros

now your playing god and fooling with the census data

I have been "fooling" with the census data quite a bit. That's part of the work. Using raw census data is stupid; for one thing, you wouldn't believe some of the stuff that I found in some of the census files, as some people really *did* fill out their census data with joke names.

Bunch is just another likely joke name that I hadn't thought to take out yet. Since it was pointed out, it's now gone.

[jcurtis423]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Let's focus on the work here, guys, and nothing else. This is important.

^^^

[theasfl]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

What you are suggesting can be done, but there are some problems.

Not all countries have accurate/available census name data.

Many countries have "name overlap," and would have essentially the same name files.

Many countries have a substantial number of people of different nationalities in them and some are split between several dominant differently-named ethnic groups (e.g., Belgium and Flemings/Walloons).

I think doing it by major ethnic groups is the most cost-effective approach, but, yes, it sure can be done differently. I know that a good Scots name file set can be done, because I did one as a test last year.

If someone else wants to do name files differently, have at it, and good luck.

I think there could be some sort of comprimise between the two systems where possible...

I believe each country's language/ethnicity break down is available here: http://www.ethnologue.com/country_index.asp click on a country and you can see the percentage breakdown of each language in each country. This can be used for the major languages of each country. If language wouldn't work then the ethnicity break down can be used or something along those lines, or of course common sense can prevail in some countries or if there is census data available.

If files can be created based on ethnicity or language and then those can be percentages of each country's output then the toggle idea could, theoretically, work. Of course you can use this said idea on top of having a sole name list for a country like you currently do for Japan.

and would you guys look around for names from a country on the internet if there isnt census data available or just let it be? I realize this would be time consuming, but I figured Id ask.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by theasfl

I think there could be some sort of comprimise between the two systems where possible...

Probably so. Personally I don't plan on using national data sets beyond the U.S. Euro set, the Korean and the Japanese, but your mileage may vary.

Have at it, guys. Let a thousand flowers bloom.

[theasfl]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Probably so. Personally I don't plan on using national data sets beyond the U.S. Euro set, the Korean and the Japanese, but your mileage may vary.

Have at it, guys. Let a thousand flowers bloom.

I personally dont have the time to work on it with my course load and online league...hopefully one of the other guys can use the format I just tried to explain to make things as accurate as possible.

[Eumel]

Russian family names (unfortunately no census data, so no infornation on their frequqency):

http://www.vgd.ru

However, a Russian namefile must probably be coarse for now anyway. The myriads of ethnic groups with own name patterns might even be more difficult than India. The site contains names of all sorts of origins -- Armenian, Georgian, Ukrainian, Tatar, etc...

[battists]

Originally Posted by Eumel

Russian family names (unfortunately no census data, so no infornation on their frequqency):

http://www.vgd.ru

However, a Russian namefile must probably be coarse for now anyway. The myriads of ethnic groups with own name patterns might even be more difficult than India. The site contains names of all sorts of origins -- Armenian, Georgian, Ukrainian, Tatar, etc...

Thanks for this Eumel!

Honestly, we all recognize that this endeavor will never be perfect. The world isn't so black and white. theasfl, that's a great web site, even unrelated to OOTP names .

While I'd love to get accurate census data for every country on the planet, that just ain't gonna happen in a million years. Half of the countries out there don't even HAVE censuses, let alone having the data available on the Internet.

So, I think what I will probably continue to do is attempt to build country-specific files if I can find accurate data (ex. Norway instead of "Scandinavian").

Failing that, I will try to build ethicity-specific files (ex. Slavic instead of Czech Republic, etc.)

Failing that, I will try to build region- or language-specific files (ex. "Russian" instead of all of the individual countries and ethnicities in that area). Shortly I'll post where everything stands so far, so those who want to pitch in can do so!

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by Eumel

The myriads of ethnic groups with own name patterns might even be more difficult than India.

Yes. The best bet would be to make single-ethnicity sets: a purely Russian name file set, a purely Belarusian name set, a purely Ukranian name set, and a purely Polish name set. You don't need to worry about the Central Asian chunks of the former Soviet Union: I know Uzbeks, Tajiks, Kyrgyz and Kazaks, and it is extremely unlikely than any of them will ever play baseball, or ever want to.

To actually work correctly, the national data sets will end up being like the Japanese and Korean sets in that they will be single-ethnicity sets. True, we mix ethnicities to a certain extent successfully in the Hispanic and U.S. Euro sets, but there's a reason for that: because of the melting pot effect of colonization and the associated intermarrying, you actually do tend to get people with names like Luis Echevarria Alvarez and Hans LeBlanc in the Western Hemisphere...and you get them far, far more often than you do in the lands where their surnames originate.

Names generated by name file sets need to make coherent sense, and, since names are highly ethnic, ethincity has to play a big factor in that.

[battists]

deleted

[battists]

Just FYI, for anyone who is helping out or providing names files, please provide data in case-sensitive format, and include foreign characters (accents, etc.) where appropriate.

Much of the data I have found is in all-upper case format. This will ultimately result in the game incorrectly capitalizing names like MCDONALD, so if we can provide the data in case-sensitive format they will come out better in the game!

(Excel can do the bulk of this with it's "PROPER" function, but that won't help for names like McDonald.)

Thanks!

[GForce]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

I'll bet money that Gforce (who is permanently on my Ignore list) has been taking shots at me...not that I'll never see them.

Let's focus on the work here, guys, and nothing else.

GH

[Long_Long_Name]

Well, the French Canadian sources are the Québec government, but whatever .

[battists]

Oops. I was in a hurry.

[f.montoya]

Battists, I love that chart you made showing the status of the name lists(I won't call them files because they've not gone into the new game yet) It give us a really good idea of what needs to be done. Great job!!

Others with info to share, share it! even if Malleus Dei scares you.

Malleus, be nice. There's no other "Name file" guru in your class. I know that, and respect you for that.

MD doesn't cut corners when it comes to authentic names so there's a ton of trust everyone can bank on right there. Period.

If everyone submitting name lists could give their background and list their sources and any other pertinent information, it would make it easier to consider such submisions for use in the new game.

[f.montoya]

BTW, joke names are hard to avoid.

Depending on your native tongue, all other languages' sounds have the potential to make a humorous sound to you.

Give that up.