Some OOTP 7 news

[D Love]

Anyone care to offer a translation of this thread?

[CommishJoe]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Now, OOTP 7 will feature a full SQL dump of the entire game database! That means, that you can basically load up the entire database of your league/world (I'd like to call the leagues in OOTP 7 'game world', since you can have as many leagues in there as you like), and load it up with a SQL compatible database program... for example MS Access. And mySQL as well, of course, so there are endless possibilities for great PHP add-ons for your league websites.

I plan to post an example dump of a long running league during beta testing, so that folks who are interested can start developing their utilities even before the game is released.

[CommishJoe]

Originally Posted by D Love

Anyone care to offer a translation of this thread?

Here's my translation .. let's wait for Markus to release his example dump before we start arguing over how we are going to handle it.

I know it's easy to start formulating ideas in your head already, but it's WAY too early to be arguing about this stuff. Let's see what we get and the format we get it in and go from there.

[Joshv02]

If Joe and Dave are excited, then I'm excited. Otherwise, I have no idea what the rest of this meant.

[Comedian2004]

Translation: (IMHO)

Of course, we do not know anything until the product is released.

If he does a SQL dump, you will be able to load the data into access and Excel pretty easy.

If we have an entry in the ODBC database by just installing the program, that is the best scenario. We could be able to access the data, replicate the data and then do whatever we wanted.

Bottom line is, it sure beats what we have for 6. If you have ever tried to write a program to access 6's data, it can be a nightmare. It can be done, but as seen, any changes to the output can create bugs that are very hard to trace down.

For example: When my software examines a P#### file, it reads it in line by line. The 3rd line read in contains the player's name, team, position, etc. Now, I do not grab his name there, because it also has his nickname there. So, I grab his age, team and position from there. Several lines later, I grab his name.

Now, if he would have changed the output file to include an extra line near the top, it throws my whole routine off. Plus, the use of <br> will make what looks like 20 lines in your browser one line when read in.

Of course, if he changes a table, adds a table, etc., it will be easier to catch that in a program. Moving tables around should not matter, as you are accessing the table by table name, not by 'the third table'.

I have asked to be a member of the beta testing team, but he said they do not take beta testers until November.

[endgame]

...and more good news as a result of these discussions, we've obviously identified the keen minds able to develop and contribute excellent next generation resources.

[jarmenia]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

you also have experieince in the field I assume. It would be like a mechanic going "yes engine rebuilds are not too difficult to learn", to an audiance pulled off the street. Some could learn easily through previous experieince, some would have difficulty. Same with this IMO. You'll have some folks on this forum that could learn it, and others that be like "WTF?"

I'm sure you'll have that with a spreadsheet as well

[CommishJoe]

Originally Posted by Comedian2004

If we have an entry in the ODBC database by just installing the program, that is the best scenario. We could be able to access the data, replicate the data and then do whatever we wanted.

Not if the DB you are trying to import to is online (MySQL for example). There is no way (that I know of) I could make the MySQL DB residing on the server read the DB sitting on my computer through ODBC. So, for BOSI, the best solution is the SQL dump. So "best" is a matter of opinion

And, I still say that this argument is mute until Markus releases his sample output. Once we see the format it's in, we'll know better if it's really going to be that difficult for Access or other others to use.

Now, I will concede that I am not an expert in MySQL or Access as my "day job" has me working with Oracle. All I know is even a SQL dump will be MUCH easier to handle then the CSV files we're dealing with now.

[CommishJoe]

Originally Posted by endgame

...and more good news as a result of these discussions is we've obviously identified the keen minds able to develop and contribute excellent next generation resources.

Well, I am by no means committing to BOSI 7 at this point. I have no idea what curve balls life is going to throw at me. It does have me itchy to do this again since I am disappointed with the end result of BOSI v2. But, I have no idea if I can handle it with my new schedule. We shall see.

[jarmenia]

Originally Posted by DaveHorn

He just recently said that this week when he admitted it was at least now possible for him to do something like that since he no longer has to reuse player IDs. But OOTP has to do a WHOLE LOT more than quit reusing player IDs for CATO-like functionality. All sorts of things would now have to be stored in the database that it have never kept track of before and then all the code would have to be written to create the HTML. With everything else going into OOTP7 and the fact its a complete rewrite built on a better architecture, I would bet there is a less than 1% chance OOTP7 has anything close to what CATO offers. Personally, I'd rather SI spend time making the sim engine and other essential features perfect than adding a bunch of bells and whistles that could be better built by the user community.

I agree completely with this statment.

Originally Posted by DaveHorn

First, Access IS proprietary. It isn't CLOSE to SQL-92 compliant and you can't so anything with the data (aside from what the application was designed to let you do) unless you actually own Access.

Not true at all. You can attach to it via ODBC, ADO, DAO, or any another programatic way and manipulate the data. You just don't have the nice front end that Access the program offers.

Originally Posted by DaveHorn

Second, all those small business applications you are referring to ARE NOT single-user client side applications.

No? Check out Maximum-Football. He's using an Access type if not Access its self to store his league data in. I've also personally supported several "clients" that have custom databases built for tracking things they need tracked. Why do you think Access is included in the Office Suite? People use it a lot more, and it more powerful that you are giving credit too.

Originally Posted by DaveHorn

Small business Access applications are almost always two-tiered with the database on a server and all the user's accessing the same database.

For a multi-user application how else would you do it? That's the only way I could think of but I thought we are talking about single user applications.

Originally Posted by DaveHorn

Last, I'm talking about consumer applications like OOTP, NOT in-house applications built for a specific user base all sharing needs/requirements under your control because they work in the same shop.

Again, see Maximum-Football. Unless David has changed his design, he is storing his league data in and access database.

Originally Posted by DaveHorn

specific user base all sharing needs/requirements under your control

Sounds like OOTP to me. A bunch of people all using the same application for the same purpose with the same goals in mind? Yup, that sounds about right.

Originally Posted by DaveHorn

Sure, lets say 3 applications were developed using ODBC access by 3 different OOTP users; say one in VB, one in C#, and one in Delphi. Guess what happens with the schema changes?

The ODBC Driver Changes. By the way, you make it seem like the schema is a fluid in constant flux. This cannot be farther from the truth. Any capable program will do everything in their power to keep the schema the same once development starts.

Originally Posted by DaveHorn

Those 3 applications all need to modify their code to work with the new OOTP release. Now say one person wrote a single piece of code that takes Markus's SQL dump and puts the database in a MySQL DB. And on top of that MySQL DB, 3 other users built 3 applications that use that MySQL DB. Guess what happens when a new OOTP is released. One person fixes one piece of code. Sound familiar?

Yup. Only difference is if the schema does change three years from now, I know Markus will be around to make the change to the ODBC driver. Will the third party developer still be around to fix his "data scrubber" very possibly not.

Originally Posted by DaveHorn

We've already got it and have been doing it since OOTP5 (or maybe earlier) with CommishJoe's exporters.

And if CommishJoe ever left and the schema changed, you'd be screwed. If the schema changes and Markus isn't around, we've got bigger issues.


I tire of repeating myself. Once Markus releases the dump, I'll continue this discussion.

[jarmenia]

Forgot about this little part

Originally Posted by DaveHorn

. If he also wants to write and support a custom ODBC driver for his likely proprietary database...more power to him. Writing an ODBC driver is no small matter and I'm sure Markus would be looking forward to supporting yet another piece of software.

You do realise that there are several ODBC drivers install with windows correct?

On my machine right now, I have drivers for dbase, visual foxpro, Excel, Access, Text Files and a few proprietary ones I've written.

He could very easily make his DB compatable with any of these then he would not have to write / support his own.

[marky32082]

I think I just did a SQL dump...

[DaveHorn]

Originally Posted by CommishJoe

Well, I am by no means committing to BOSI 7 at this point. I have no idea what curve balls life is going to throw at me. It does have me itchy to do this again since I am disappointed with the end result of BOSI v2. But, I have no idea if I can handle it with my new schedule. We shall see.

I've been bugging Markus for 6 months to let me sign an NDA so that I could help carry on the BOSI and CATO torch in v7. It was shortly after my last "nudge" that Markus made this post and as far as I am concerned this is the absolute best thing he could have done for the community.

If v7 comes close to meeting its expectations and still retains what matters most, the excellent baseball sim engine that we know and love, then I'll be planning on moving HFTC to v7.

HFTC won't move until I have both BOSI and CATO functionality. I personally was planning on beginning work on my ideas for v7 the second I get my hands on the first "SQL dump" from Markus.

As you know Joe, I was trying to get others who wanted to work on completing BOSI 2 to work together but failed miserably. So I just went ahead and started working on BOSI 2 myself, but quit working on it a while back when I decided it would be better to just wait for v7. Markus's announcement made me feel great about that decision.

My own personal goals was to develop something that offers both BOSI and CATO like functionality from the same DB. I love CATO, but one thing I can't stand is its all just static content and it takes an enternity to run each season (for a number of reasons). By dumping Access and going with a completely dynamic system not only would CATO no longer have to execute for hours and hours to generate a thousands of HTML pages but we'd be able to offer far more functionality than plain static content (i.e. sortable columns/stats, search functionality, etc).

There are downsides to this plan for those folks who prefer CATO the way it is now, but it has a ton of upsides for online leagues and that is my focus and direction.

Jar - I'm done discussing it with you. I'm glad I'm getting what I need. I hope you get your driver.

[CommishJoe]

Originally Posted by DaveHorn

I've been bugging Markus for 6 months to let me sign an NDA so that I could help carry on the BOSI and CATO torch in v7. It was shortly after my last "nudge" that Markus made this post and as far as I am concerned this is the absolute best thing he could have done for the community.

If v7 comes close to meeting its expectations and still retains what matters most, the excellent baseball sim engine that we know and love, then I'll be planning on moving HFTC to v7.

HFTC won't move until I have both BOSI and CATO functionality. I personally was planning on beginning work on my ideas for v7 the second I get my hands on the first "SQL dump" from Markus.

As you know Joe, I was trying to get others who wanted to work on completing BOSI 2 to work together but failed miserably. So I just went ahead and started working on BOSI 2 myself, but quit working on it a while back when I decided it would be better to just wait for v7. Markus's announcement made me feel great about that decision.

My own personal goals was to develop something that offers both BOSI and CATO like functionality from the same DB. I love CATO, but one thing I can't stand is its all just static content and it takes an enternity to run each season (for a number of reasons). By dumping Access and going with a completely dynamic system not only would CATO no longer have to execute for hours and hours to generate a thousands of HTML pages but we'd be able to offer far more functionality than plain static content (i.e. sortable columns/stats, search functionality, etc).

There are downsides to this plan for those folks who prefer CATO the way it is now, but it has a ton of upsides for online leagues and that is my focus and direction.

Jar - I'm done discussing it with you. I'm glad I'm getting what I need. I hope you get your driver.

My dream was always to have BOSI up to the level of CATO reporting wise. I just never had the time to get there. Once the dump comes out, contact me and we'll figure out how to proceed. I might not have the time to lead the project anymore, but I'll always have time to contribute

[DaveHorn]

Originally Posted by CommishJoe

My dream was always to have BOSI up to the level of CATO reporting wise. I just never had the time to get there. Once the dump comes out, contact me and we'll figure out how to proceed. I might not have the time to lead the project anymore, but I'll always have time to contribute

Excellent. However light or heavy, your assistance in any way will be golden. I'm going to be setting up a website soon at ootponline.com. My goal is it will be a place for those who wish to participate in any of the community driven ootp development projects to get together, discuss, plan, form teams and projects....etc. The mods forum, while great, just doesn't cut it. I'll keep you posted.

[Vris]

This thread is so far over my head, I just strained my neck.

But if it's good news, then all the power to you people.

[Matteo]

Dave/Joe, if you want I can help with the design of the utility I can help. Still don't know PHP and MySql, but I know my .css!

[majorjello]

That is the best news i've heard in a long time. I'm so very happy. Thanks Markus!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Matteo]

Originally Posted by marky32082

I think I just did a SQL dump...

This is the only post in this thread that I understand. I feel blessed

[CommishJoe]

Originally Posted by Matteo

Dave/Joe, if you want I can help with the design of the utility I can help. Still don't know PHP and MySql, but I know my .css!

I don't know Dave's design skills, but mine stink From my point of view, any and all design help would be greatly appreciated.