The European football thread

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by darkhorse

With Gretna currently 12 points clear in the Scottish First Division, any predictions on how they'll fare next year in the top flight. Anyone think they'll give Celtic and Rangers a scare in the near future?

errr no Rangers wont even give Celtic a scare nevermind Gretna, I'd say 7th or 8th at best.

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by bababui

Euros give no one else credit. Australia on 2006 and the USA and Korea in 2002 should have proved that football isnt necessatily superior in Europe.

One thing that people fail to see though is that I'd wager that all the Australian team in 2006 played outside of Australia, not sure about the USA in 2002 as my memory even finds it hard to think what I had for breakfast yesterday but I'd say a 50/50 split at least, I'll give you Korea but that was just pure emotion they were playing on plus the fact every game they played nearly 100% of the crowd was Korean.

[ukhotstove]

2002 USA squad consisted of 12 players who played outside of the MLS, the team that faced Germany in their last game in 2002 consisted of 7 players who played outside the MLS.

2002 Squad.

http://www.worldcup-2002.co.uk/teams-usa.htm

2002 v Germany.

http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/w/pwc/mr_26280.html

[ukhotstove]

2006 Australian squad consisted of only two players who actually play in Australia, those being Mark Milligan and Michael Beauchamp both of which never got 1 minutes play in the tournament.

[ukhotstove]

Thought Korea would be different only 3 played outside of Korea who faced Germany in 2002.

[ukhotstove]

Another Beckham story not sure how true it is and you know what it's like when people disagree you never get the true story, but have to say that personally I think he showed a lack of loyalty by signing a contract with MLS before he had even finished playing for Madrid.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...pe/6262133.stm

[ukhotstove]

Heart of gold us Wigan folk, scroll down to the bottom of the page.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...rs/6262067.stm

Wonder if players from the likes of Chelsea, Liverpool, Man Utd and Arsenal would have done the same, I'm putting my money on no.

[rudel.dietrich]

The Newcastle-Tottenham match was probably the best I have seen this season

[bababui]

The Premiership case-study

Uli Hesse-Lichtenberger
Archive





When I heard that José Mourinho had referred to Michael Ballack as one of Chelsea's 'untouchables', I was surprised. Surely, that was taking things too far, wasn't it? I mean, Mourinho may or may not be plotting his farewell from Stamford Bridge, but there's no need to insult and humiliate people like that only to speed up the process.


Clive Rose/GettyImages
Ballack: 'Untouchable' in the blue of Chelsea?





Then I realised that Mourinho had not been using 'untouchable' in the Indian sense of the word: 'a member of the lowest class whom others must not even touch'. And he didn't mean 'lying beyond one's reach', either. By 'untouchable', I finally deduced, Mourinho meant: above reproach and impeachment.


Ah, okay. That was more like it and more typical of the man. And I mean 'typical' in the sense of 'being a representative example'. Ballack, you see, has never been 'Wor Mike'. He's never been the terrace yobs' player, or the armchair pundits' player. He has only very rarely been a television panels' player. And, if the reports of unrest in the Chelsea dressing room are to be believed, he may not even be a players' player.


But he has always been a coaches' player.


With one single exception - that of Otto Rehhagel, who never forgave Ballack for declining Kaiserslautern's offer of a contract extension. Every coach who's ever had Ballack in his team is singing his praises and that includes Felix Magath, even though he chooses to keep quiet about the matter these days - probabaly out of loyalty towards the Bayern boardroom. And it goes even for coaches who have not worked with him, witness Jürgen Klopp's attempts last summer to convince a skeptical nation that Ballack had actually played an outstanding World Cup.


I have always felt this should give the critics some food for thought, but it seems they choose to ignore it. Two weeks ago, for instance, when Chelsea only drew 2-2 with Fulham, the German wire reports gleefully noted that the equaliser came thanks to a Ballack blunder. They did not mention, however, that Michael Essien awfully misjudged the cross before it got to Ballack and that Didier Drogba muffed the clearance after Ballack had had his chance.


But be that as it may, I haven't seen enough of Chelsea's matches this season to voice an opinion with any degree of authority. And so, to be a good columnist for you, I decided to rectify that by treating myself to a large dose of Premiership, aka 'The Most Exciting League In The World', football this Saturday.


Since our Bundesliga grounds, such as the Schalke arena, are being misused for things like biathlon these days, my friendly pay TV station offered Watford vs Liverpool at 1.45pm German time, then Chelsea against Wigan at 4pm and Arsenal's trip to Blackburn at 6.15pm. (By the way, biathlon is a contest involving skiers with rifles, in case you don't know.)
But the longer I watched, and the longer the afternoon dragged on and turned into evening, the less I concentrated on individual performances, such as Ballack's. It became more of a case study in comparing the Premier League with the Bundesliga fare I'm used to. And I can't really say that the former came out as hands-on winner.


Let's start with the points scored by England. I certainly got to see a lot more celebrities in shorts than I normally do on weekends. And at times they did deliver - Thierry Henry's goal that put the Blackburn match beyond doubt was one I won't forget in the forseeable future.
By contrast, Germany's leading football magazine 'Kicker' has been depressing us these past weeks by gradually publishing their traditional lists ranking the Bundesliga players. The top two categories are called 'World Class' and 'International Class'. Both were left empty when 'Kicker' ranked the wide men in both defence and offence.


There was also no one termed 'World Class' in offensive or defensive midfield, and just one player in either category made the international class (Frings and Diego, respectively). The same went for strikers: no world class player, just one of international class (Klose). And as regards goalkeepers and full backs, 'Kicker' was equally gloomy: world class - nada, international class - three keepers and just two full backs.


Another thing I liked about the Premiership, apart from seeing some classy players, was the way the Watford fans cheered Jordan Stewart's shot that hit the bar when it was already 3-0 to Liverpool. Bundesliga fans would have been beyond caring at this point. (Provided, of course, that I'm not being too romantic here. Perhaps the Watford fans were being ironic. I doubt it, though.)


But speaking of support, I was a bit surprised to see so many empty seats at the three grounds. True, it could be that this is just one of the drawbacks of all-seater stadia (terraces always look full), as the match stats claim that the Stamford Bridge attendance was just 2,000 under capacity and Vicarage Road's 2,500.


There was a whole section beneath the Chelsea scoreboard that was completely deserted. Mainz, who are in a comparable situation to Watford and have a ground of about the same size, almost always sell out their place, let's just leave it at that.



Empics
Robbie Savage makes the most of a shove from Gilberto Silva. The Brazilian was soon sent off.





Then there was the football. I had been told about the widening gap between the glamour teams and the also-rans in the Premiership, but if Saturday was anything to go by, it's more like a canyon.


I can't recall ever having seen two Bundesliga games in a row that were as one-sided as the games in Watford and Chelsea - not to mention that the game at Blackburn, was basically also lopsided, if you take into account that Arsenal were down to ten after all of twelve minutes.


Also, I can't recall having seen two Bundesliga games in a row where the eventual winners were gifted goals so blatantly. Three of Chelsea's four goals were so soft they melted; and both Arsenal goals were scored after two players decided to take on the whole Rovers defence by themselves.


And Ballack? Well, yeah, he was okay, I guess. Can't tell you more, as there was no opposition to speak of. Let's just say he did not leave a lasting impression. Which also went for almost anyone and anything else I saw in those 270 minutes.

[Forest_Fan]

I imagine Watford are already plotting their Championship campaign for next season. If not, they should be.

[bababui]

Originally Posted by Forest_Fan

I imagine Watford are already plotting their Championship campaign for next season. If not, they should be.

Marc Duffy has his head in the oven as we chat.

[theasfl]

Originally Posted by Raderick

Since this IS a football thread, I'll say it here.

completely agree

[theasfl]

Originally Posted by Forest_Fan

I imagine Watford are already plotting their Championship campaign for next season. If not, they should be.

they should have been about two months into the season.

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by Forest_Fan

I imagine Watford are already plotting their Championship campaign for next season. If not, they should be.

Watford were relegated on 10th October 2006.

[darkhorse]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

errr no Rangers wont even give Celtic a scare nevermind Gretna, I'd say 7th or 8th at best.

I predict Gretna will finish a lot closer to third than bottom of the table in season one.

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by darkhorse

I predict Gretna will finish a lot closer to third than bottom of the table in season one.

I'd put Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs and Kilmarnock above them, not sure if I'd put Falkirk above them as they lost Anthony Stokes so be interesting to see how they perform without him.

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by bababui

The Premiership case-study

Uli Hesse-Lichtenberger
Archive





When I heard that José Mourinho had referred to Michael Ballack as one of Chelsea's 'untouchables', I was surprised. Surely, that was taking things too far, wasn't it? I mean, Mourinho may or may not be plotting his farewell from Stamford Bridge, but there's no need to insult and humiliate people like that only to speed up the process.


Clive Rose/GettyImages
Ballack: 'Untouchable' in the blue of Chelsea?





Then I realised that Mourinho had not been using 'untouchable' in the Indian sense of the word: 'a member of the lowest class whom others must not even touch'. And he didn't mean 'lying beyond one's reach', either. By 'untouchable', I finally deduced, Mourinho meant: above reproach and impeachment.


Ah, okay. That was more like it and more typical of the man. And I mean 'typical' in the sense of 'being a representative example'. Ballack, you see, has never been 'Wor Mike'. He's never been the terrace yobs' player, or the armchair pundits' player. He has only very rarely been a television panels' player. And, if the reports of unrest in the Chelsea dressing room are to be believed, he may not even be a players' player.


But he has always been a coaches' player.


With one single exception - that of Otto Rehhagel, who never forgave Ballack for declining Kaiserslautern's offer of a contract extension. Every coach who's ever had Ballack in his team is singing his praises and that includes Felix Magath, even though he chooses to keep quiet about the matter these days - probabaly out of loyalty towards the Bayern boardroom. And it goes even for coaches who have not worked with him, witness Jürgen Klopp's attempts last summer to convince a skeptical nation that Ballack had actually played an outstanding World Cup.


I have always felt this should give the critics some food for thought, but it seems they choose to ignore it. Two weeks ago, for instance, when Chelsea only drew 2-2 with Fulham, the German wire reports gleefully noted that the equaliser came thanks to a Ballack blunder. They did not mention, however, that Michael Essien awfully misjudged the cross before it got to Ballack and that Didier Drogba muffed the clearance after Ballack had had his chance.


But be that as it may, I haven't seen enough of Chelsea's matches this season to voice an opinion with any degree of authority. And so, to be a good columnist for you, I decided to rectify that by treating myself to a large dose of Premiership, aka 'The Most Exciting League In The World', football this Saturday.


Since our Bundesliga grounds, such as the Schalke arena, are being misused for things like biathlon these days, my friendly pay TV station offered Watford vs Liverpool at 1.45pm German time, then Chelsea against Wigan at 4pm and Arsenal's trip to Blackburn at 6.15pm. (By the way, biathlon is a contest involving skiers with rifles, in case you don't know.)
But the longer I watched, and the longer the afternoon dragged on and turned into evening, the less I concentrated on individual performances, such as Ballack's. It became more of a case study in comparing the Premier League with the Bundesliga fare I'm used to. And I can't really say that the former came out as hands-on winner.


Let's start with the points scored by England. I certainly got to see a lot more celebrities in shorts than I normally do on weekends. And at times they did deliver - Thierry Henry's goal that put the Blackburn match beyond doubt was one I won't forget in the forseeable future.
By contrast, Germany's leading football magazine 'Kicker' has been depressing us these past weeks by gradually publishing their traditional lists ranking the Bundesliga players. The top two categories are called 'World Class' and 'International Class'. Both were left empty when 'Kicker' ranked the wide men in both defence and offence.


There was also no one termed 'World Class' in offensive or defensive midfield, and just one player in either category made the international class (Frings and Diego, respectively). The same went for strikers: no world class player, just one of international class (Klose). And as regards goalkeepers and full backs, 'Kicker' was equally gloomy: world class - nada, international class - three keepers and just two full backs.


Another thing I liked about the Premiership, apart from seeing some classy players, was the way the Watford fans cheered Jordan Stewart's shot that hit the bar when it was already 3-0 to Liverpool. Bundesliga fans would have been beyond caring at this point. (Provided, of course, that I'm not being too romantic here. Perhaps the Watford fans were being ironic. I doubt it, though.)


But speaking of support, I was a bit surprised to see so many empty seats at the three grounds. True, it could be that this is just one of the drawbacks of all-seater stadia (terraces always look full), as the match stats claim that the Stamford Bridge attendance was just 2,000 under capacity and Vicarage Road's 2,500.


There was a whole section beneath the Chelsea scoreboard that was completely deserted. Mainz, who are in a comparable situation to Watford and have a ground of about the same size, almost always sell out their place, let's just leave it at that.



Empics
Robbie Savage makes the most of a shove from Gilberto Silva. The Brazilian was soon sent off.





Then there was the football. I had been told about the widening gap between the glamour teams and the also-rans in the Premiership, but if Saturday was anything to go by, it's more like a canyon.


I can't recall ever having seen two Bundesliga games in a row that were as one-sided as the games in Watford and Chelsea - not to mention that the game at Blackburn, was basically also lopsided, if you take into account that Arsenal were down to ten after all of twelve minutes.


Also, I can't recall having seen two Bundesliga games in a row where the eventual winners were gifted goals so blatantly. Three of Chelsea's four goals were so soft they melted; and both Arsenal goals were scored after two players decided to take on the whole Rovers defence by themselves.


And Ballack? Well, yeah, he was okay, I guess. Can't tell you more, as there was no opposition to speak of. Let's just say he did not leave a lasting impression. Which also went for almost anyone and anything else I saw in those 270 minutes.

I'll pick up on a couple of points he makes.

First the support, the Watford v Liverpool game again was changed to that stupid kick off time of 12:45 to suit TV, this means that people who work on a Saturday morning which there are millions can't attend the game it also means away supporters having to get up at around 5-6am in the morning to get to the game in this case. He brings up Mainz as an example against Watford but wonder if he looks where Watford actually is on the map as it's close to teams like Arsenal, Charlton, Chelsea, Fulham, Reading, Spurs and West Ham all who are within 40 miles of Watford and all who are in the Premiership and all who are trying to tap into the same fan base.

Chelsea charge close on £50 ($100) to get in so you work that out for the season, Wigan have had falling attendances and have cut their admission fee's because of this.

Second point he goes on about the widening gap between the glamour teams and the also rans, this happens in every league not just the Premiership. I bet if you looked at every league in the world you would find that they have been dominated by four teams some leagues are even dominated by fewer teams Scottish Premiership as an example, I find this part of the article kind of strange really as the Bundesliga as been dominated by pretty much 1 team with Bayern winning 7 of the last 10 titles when in the same time span Man Utd have won the Premiership on 5 occasions.

Also to add to this strange one sided argument he tries to put forward when he states the Watford, Chelsea and Blackburn games is the fact Liverpool beat Watford 3-0 away but on the same weekend Bayern beat Mainz 4-0 away so does this make the Bundesliga more one sided than the Premiership ? Onto the Chelsea game, up until this weekend Wigan had ran Chelsea close in every game they had played in fact 2 games Chelsea only won by scoring in the last minute, this weekend Wigan were so desperate because of an injury crisis that of the 11 starting players 4 were playing out of position 2 of those being in the back four and if they had a fully fit squad half of the team wouldn't have started the game. And to finish on the Blackburn game, the way Arsenal are playing at this moment in time they would beat any team in the world.

To be honest he watches 3 Premiership games and tries to come up with an history of the Premiership, bit like if I had watched the Mainz 0-4 Bayern, Nurnberg 3-1 Hannover and Bochum 2-0 Borrusia M games from the same weekend in the Bundesliga and came up with the same points he does.

[Caporegime]

ukhotstove,

Wigan Athletic Football Club?

Is that the same Wigan I'm currently watching on FSC getting eviscerated on the pitch by Chelsea?

Funny, they don't look very "athletic" to me.

[Muppetus Galacticus]

Support non-league football!

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by Caporegime

ukhotstove,

Wigan Athletic Football Club?

Is that the same Wigan I'm currently watching on FSC get eviscerated on the pitch by Chelsea?

Funny, they don't look very "athletic" to me.

Smack talk kind of doesn't have the same ring when it's spelt wrong I think the word i'm looking for is touche