Competitive balance discussion - Page 42

Westheim · 12-30-2018, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bagpipes5

I can fathom it bub. I'm here for discussion, and you started with the insults/wisecracks like your some sort of Internet tough guy. How about actually reading my posts before jumping to conclusions. Judging from your post history my comment stands.

Also funny because I have another team that is actually worse rated and is in the playoffs right now going to Diamond next week. Explain that! My relegated team won Bronze League and made Silver Finals and you see no error in that? lol ok. Nevermind, I will not waste my Sunday arguing with an obvious troll.

Instead of further mouthing off about "stat engine flaws" you could also post your team that got rolled in Gold. Who knows what overvalued players are on there. But, no, pointing fingers and blaming some nebulous problem with the engine is more convenient.

By the way, you also have a post history as well, and I am not sure you have all the kinks of the game worked out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eldur00

The engine for pro/rel is not working right and many people are not happy with it.

What is "not working right"? After the first bronze league season some wrong teams were promoted. They fixed that. Name specific issues. Be aware that "whale teams clobber me at every step" is not an engine issue, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by eldur00

Deal with that instead of being yet again the annoying guy sitting on his high horse driving people that want to discuss the game away.

I know, the truth hurts those that don't want to hear it.

Bagpipes5 · 12-30-2018, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westheim

I know, the truth hurts those that don't want to hear it.

lol What a POS.

Now I'll ask you directly again. Yes or no. Does this make sense and look like balance to you? Do you think this is a natural progression? Please expound on your answer. You are keeping us all entertained with your 'logic'. You bring so much to the table.

Again, Silver League lost the 'World Series' in 7, just FYI.

Westheim · 12-30-2018, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bagpipes5

lol What a POS.

Now I'll ask you directly again. Yes or no. Does this make sense and look like balance to you? Do you think this is a natural progression? Please expound on your answer. You are keeping us all entertained with your 'logic'. You bring so much to the table.

Again, Silver League lost the 'World Series' in 7, just FYI.

Nobody cares about the Silver League team. The question was why the Gold team got romped so badly.

I could now tell you that using the standard James formula for the pythagorean record, that team finished about 10 games under their expected record, in other words they were exceptionally unlucky. Look at their record in 1-run games and extra innings. They are probably pathetic in both. The bullpen probably sucks. Maybe the game strategy you gave them does not play to their strengths or plays against their strengths. But what the heck do I know? There is probably no helping you for your attitude, and I'm apparently just a "POS"... Screw me and my logic.

Bagpipes5 · 12-30-2018, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westheim

But what the heck do I know? There is probably no helping you for your attitude, and I'm apparently just a "POS"... Screw me and my logic.

Now you're getting it troll! Good for you!

Also, bullpen ERA was 12th/30. Not as good as they've been but not paltry either. A statistical outlier.

Westheim · 12-30-2018, 01:35 PM

Nobody cares about bullpen ERA. Look at your record in 1-run games and extra-...

Ah whatever. Be mad. I don't care.

Bagpipes5 · 12-30-2018, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Westheim

Nobody cares about bullpen ERA. Look at your record in 1-run games and extra-...

Ah whatever. Be mad. I don't care.

What makes you think I'm mad? Because you jumped my posts with snarky wisecracks? Nah, I think that you already know what I think of that though.

Now back to having a discussion about competitive balance in Perfect Team, your regularly scheduled broadcast.

zrog2000 · 12-30-2018, 01:40 PM

It's just a matter of time before every manager who doesn't continually spend money will just get demolished once they find that level where every team is better than theirs. It can happen at gold or diamond or perfect, but it will definitely happen. There's not much that can be done about it. Have fun next week after relegation.

omniart · 12-30-2018, 01:50 PM

Westheim has some good points and is not at all behaving like a troll.

Even between Bronze and Silver your runs scored and runs allowed were on a pretty steep decline. This suggests to me a two possibilities. One, your team has a lot of flat-track bullies. Two, you are not improving your team much between levels.

mess · 12-30-2018, 02:00 PM

I've said this before and will say it many more times.

OVR means very little in my experience. It's simply a way to break the cards down into rarity. (90-99 Diamond, 80-89 Gold, etc)

2004 Ichiro is a Bronze card... and he puts out Gold+ production. You have to really pay very close attention to the underlying factors.

zrog2000 · 12-30-2018, 02:07 PM

I will say that I hate that you can't see all of the ratings on the AH. You have to guess about splits if you're not familiar with a card.

Maddox · 12-30-2018, 02:16 PM

My main team after winning their silver division has finished in last place two seasons in a row in gold. Not good enough to compete but too good to be relegated so I don't have high hopes for next season.

My starters, even though I don't think they are bad based on ratings just can't pitch.
Last place in the conference in ERA

My bullpen was 13th.
Hard to win with pitching like that

Matt Arnold · 12-30-2018, 02:41 PM

We will take another look through player ratings for next year and see how to improve things. But as everyone else has said, you have to look at the full picture for a player instead of just the overall number. Some players, for one reason or another, have ratings that do differ from their actual value to a team.

As I said, we will certainly revisit things for next year, and our goal will certainly to not be too far off on players. However, the formulae that we use to rank players will certainly differ from everyone else's evaluation, especially when it comes to how you value speed vs defense vs power vs etc... So just because one guy is rated higher than another means he's a better player, and that goes further when you look how they specifically fit into your team or your lineup.

mcdog512 · 12-30-2018, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zrog2000

I will say that I hate that you can't see all of the ratings on the AH. You have to guess about splits if you're not familiar with a card.

True, but it does provide incentive to scout your league to see splits on various players in case they were to become available on the AH.

Mormo · 12-30-2018, 02:47 PM

I looked further into it and there are two [mostly] silver teams in my Gold league that are very successful. I check their ballparks and home runs are .900 and doubles are 1.200. Most of their teams specialize in gap power.

Now it's not speculation to me anymore. I'm fully convinced gap power is underrepresented in the overall rating to the point that it has become a meta. Back in the beta I had a 75 Bill Madlock that was killing and I had no clue why.

My 87 Hank Aaron and 89 Mickey Mantle always had high slugging with 85+ gap power and only low-70 HR power. They were always competitive compared to ~95 cards which were also poor defensively.

I can be patient because this is the first installment but this is a VERY serious issue. Once again, people put their hard-earned resources into cards they think are good. When you hover over cards, gap power isn't even one of the main attributes shown so this borders on predatory and definitely deceptive.

Gap power is the clear meta. This needs to be balanced.

Asov · 12-30-2018, 02:48 PM

This way better cards are pulled more often, is the only thing that balance the game between PTW and FTP. Who send you, EA?

Mormo · 12-30-2018, 02:48 PM

Thank you, Matt, for responding. I will rest my case and be optimistic.

NYY #23 · 12-30-2018, 03:01 PM

Think of how boring a game it would be if the players with the highest overall ratings were always better, and all it took to win was assemble high numbers.

I'm not saying ratings can't get better, but it's been pretty interesting to see some of the strategies playing out. It's a good opportunity to see how things work out. Sometimes a player is better because of the make up of the league, even though they may not be a better overall player.

If everyone loads up on pitchers with high stuff would having hitters with high avoid k help counter. With so many power hitters movement becomes much more valuable.

There is more than one way to build a solid team. I think there are plenty of people willing to answer questions, and there have been several interesting threads about what ratings mean, what park effects mean, etc.

Hang in there, this can be a good learning experience.

Mormo · 12-30-2018, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NYY #23

Hang in there, this can be a good learning experience.

I understand that but honestly, there are only two schools of thought on this: those who spend money and those who don't.

This isn't a fighting game where everyone is supposedly equal and you can just simply pick who you're better with. You can have any variance you'd like within tiers but when that variance crosses tiers with different price points that's an issue. In this case, everyone isn't supposedly equal and prices reflect perceived superiority. Overall rating was never huge to me because many times I've snuck in a win against perfect/diamond teams.

But to be 9 games back over an entire season isn't RNG and I couldn't ignore it.

My team's average rating is 89.08
Their team average rating is 79.48

Is someone really going to defend that? In my mind, I'm just being punished for supporting a game in beta. I've accepted it for now and look forward to a more accurate rating system but I don't think it can be defended as it currently is. It just sucks and we'll have to deal with it for now.

whobob · 12-30-2018, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcdog512

True, but it does provide incentive to scout your league to see splits on various players in case they were to become available on the AH.

This is true too, but I'd rather find a unique gem in the AH rather than find something everyone else is using.

Asov · 12-30-2018, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mormo

I understand that but honestly, there are only two schools of thought on this: those who spend money and those who don't.

This isn't a fighting game where everyone is supposedly equal and you can just simply pick who you're better with. You can have any variance you'd like within tiers but when that variance crosses tiers with different price points that's an issue. In this case, everyone isn't supposedly equal and prices reflect perceived superiority. Overall rating was never huge to me because many times I've snuck in a win against perfect/diamond teams.

But to be 9 games back over an entire season isn't RNG and I couldn't ignore it.

My team's average rating is 89.08
Their team average rating is 79.48

Is someone really going to defend that? In my mind, I'm just being punished for supporting a game in beta. I've accepted it for now and look forward to a more accurate rating system but I don't think it can be defended as it currently is. It just sucks and we'll have to deal with it for now.

You have 1 million numbers in the game, but you only gonna use one?

If good cards are being rated lower, FTP players or guys with a modest wallet can compite a little better against whales. Is that bad?

12-30-2018, 01:35 PM	#825
Westheim Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Germany Posts: 13,718	Nobody cares about bullpen ERA. Look at your record in 1-run games and extra-... Ah whatever. Be mad. I don't care. __________________ Portland Raccoons, 92 years of excell-.... of baseball: Furballs here! 1983 * 1989 * 1991 * 1992 * 1993 * 1995 * 1996 * 2010 * 2017 * 2018 * 2019 * 2026 * 2028 * 2035 * 2037 * 2044 * 2045 * 2046 * 2047 * 2048 * 2051 * 2054 * 2055 * 2061 1 OSANAI : 2 POWELL : 7 NOMURA \| RAMOS : 8 REECE : 10 BROWN : 15 HALL : 27 FERNANDEZ : 28 CASAS : 31 CARMONA : 32 WEST : 39 TONER : 46 SAITO Resident Mets Cynic - The Mets from 1962 onwards, here.

12-30-2018, 01:50 PM	#828
omniart Major Leagues Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Seattle, Washington Posts: 330	Westheim has some good points and is not at all behaving like a troll. Even between Bronze and Silver your runs scored and runs allowed were on a pretty steep decline. This suggests to me a two possibilities. One, your team has a lot of flat-track bullies. Two, you are not improving your team much between levels. __________________ Graphics on Google Drive Commissioner, Great Lakes Baseball League Cincinnati Packers, American Circuit Athletic Bilbao, UEBA Papeete Black Pearls, Pacific Baseball Federation

12-30-2018, 02:00 PM	#829
mess Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 202	I've said this before and will say it many more times. OVR means very little in my experience. It's simply a way to break the cards down into rarity. (90-99 Diamond, 80-89 Gold, etc) 2004 Ichiro is a Bronze card... and he puts out Gold+ production. You have to really pay very close attention to the underlying factors. __________________

12-30-2018, 02:16 PM	#831
Maddox All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2013 Posts: 903	My main team after winning their silver division has finished in last place two seasons in a row in gold. Not good enough to compete but too good to be relegated so I don't have high hopes for next season. My starters, even though I don't think they are bad based on ratings just can't pitch. Last place in the conference in ERA My bullpen was 13th. Hard to win with pitching like that Attached Images

12-30-2018, 01:40 PM	#827
zrog2000 All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 1,335	It's just a matter of time before every manager who doesn't continually spend money will just get demolished once they find that level where every team is better than theirs. It can happen at gold or diamond or perfect, but it will definitely happen. There's not much that can be done about it. Have fun next week after relegation.

12-30-2018, 02:07 PM	#830
zrog2000 All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 1,335	I will say that I hate that you can't see all of the ratings on the AH. You have to guess about splits if you're not familiar with a card.

12-30-2018, 02:41 PM	#832
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 15,827	We will take another look through player ratings for next year and see how to improve things. But as everyone else has said, you have to look at the full picture for a player instead of just the overall number. Some players, for one reason or another, have ratings that do differ from their actual value to a team. As I said, we will certainly revisit things for next year, and our goal will certainly to not be too far off on players. However, the formulae that we use to rank players will certainly differ from everyone else's evaluation, especially when it comes to how you value speed vs defense vs power vs etc... So just because one guy is rated higher than another means he's a better player, and that goes further when you look how they specifically fit into your team or your lineup.

12-30-2018, 02:47 PM	#834
Mormo Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 55	I looked further into it and there are two [mostly] silver teams in my Gold league that are very successful. I check their ballparks and home runs are .900 and doubles are 1.200. Most of their teams specialize in gap power. Now it's not speculation to me anymore. I'm fully convinced gap power is underrepresented in the overall rating to the point that it has become a meta. Back in the beta I had a 75 Bill Madlock that was killing and I had no clue why. My 87 Hank Aaron and 89 Mickey Mantle always had high slugging with 85+ gap power and only low-70 HR power. They were always competitive compared to ~95 cards which were also poor defensively. I can be patient because this is the first installment but this is a VERY serious issue. Once again, people put their hard-earned resources into cards they think are good. When you hover over cards, gap power isn't even one of the main attributes shown so this borders on predatory and definitely deceptive. Gap power is the clear meta. This needs to be balanced.

12-30-2018, 02:48 PM	#835
Asov Minors (Single A) Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 85	This way better cards are pulled more often, is the only thing that balance the game between PTW and FTP. Who send you, EA?

12-30-2018, 02:48 PM	#836
Mormo Minors (Single A) Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 55	Thank you, Matt, for responding. I will rest my case and be optimistic.

12-30-2018, 03:01 PM	#837
NYY #23 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 13,112	Think of how boring a game it would be if the players with the highest overall ratings were always better, and all it took to win was assemble high numbers. I'm not saying ratings can't get better, but it's been pretty interesting to see some of the strategies playing out. It's a good opportunity to see how things work out. Sometimes a player is better because of the make up of the league, even though they may not be a better overall player. If everyone loads up on pitchers with high stuff would having hitters with high avoid k help counter. With so many power hitters movement becomes much more valuable. There is more than one way to build a solid team. I think there are plenty of people willing to answer questions, and there have been several interesting threads about what ratings mean, what park effects mean, etc. Hang in there, this can be a good learning experience.