Competitive balance discussion

[Maddox]

Originally Posted by Radsmats

Actually a 117-win pace so far, 32 games in. Second place is a two-way tie at .500. It's like grouse hunting with a howitzer.

Your going to run into teams that are overpowered for their league occasionally. I have one of them in my division in gold league.

But is is getting better as the best teams keep moving up the chain. Your right though that there is nothing fun about being in a league where one tea just runs away with it. We are only 34 games in and, while I am hovering around .500, I am already 8 games behind.

All, I can do is aim for a wildcard and keep working to incrementally upgrade my team.

[Weaseltail]

Hope the devs revisit the promotion system for OOTP20 PT. Waiting weeks/months for leagues to sort themselves out is a real drag.

Some teams are so stacked they should just be promoted directly to a Perfect League and allowed to play against each other. There's no point dragging dozens of mediocre teams along with them up the ladder every week.

I have one team that is in a diamond league. I didn't spend anything on it ($ went to my more competitive team). The team has never been close to the playoffs outside the first week, is usually out of the hunt after the first couple of days, can't hold a candle to the all-perfect/diamond teams in the league, and can't generate any PP because it keeps getting smashed.

But it keeps getting promoted. It's not fun, and I have almost stopped even checking in on the team since there's no real point. I guess I could intentionally tank to get relegated, but that isn't much fun either. There needs to be a better system to assign teams to appropriate leagues IMO.

[boxner1]

Originally Posted by Radsmats

Actually a 117-win pace so far, 32 games in. Second place is a two-way tie at .500. It's like grouse hunting with a howitzer.

It can be done without a howitzer. I haven't spent a penny on packs. My team in Silver 294 is on pace for 124 wins.

My first batch of packs included Pudge Rodriguez, who I quickly sold for 14k and used that to buy golds.

A week or two later I saved up 10k in points and bought 10 packs. The best I got from that was Nola, who I sold for 4.3k. That convinced me to avoid using points for packs and negated a lot of the advantage I got from Pudge.

So, I wasn't one of those who got a Trout or similar from packs.

My team has 17 golds (12 of them pitchers), 5 silver and 3 bronze. The bronze includes Kyle Schwarber, who plays fantastic on all 3 of my teams. I think he's the most undervalued card in the game if you play him at catcher.

I think the biggest advantage I've created is to build a ballpark for LH batters and pitchers. It's 1.1 for LH and 0.9 for RH. Then I have the wind set for 20mph out to right and a warm temp city. Needless to say my teams hit a lot of HRs. :-) You could do the same and build a ballpark heavily weighted to RH. Or, one built for pitching and speed. The key is to get players that fit the ballpark.

I start 8 LH batters and have 5 LH starters. If I could ever find a LH 2B better than Joe Gordon (RH batter) I would start 9 LH batters. Yes, a lineup like this is at a disadvantage vs a LH starter but fortunately there are a lot more RH starters than LHs.

I'm currently 18-3 at home and 15-7 on the road. And, no money spent.

[AirmenSmith]

Originally Posted by boxner1

My first batch of packs included Pudge Rodriguez, who I quickly sold for 14k and used that to buy golds.
.

This is the part that gets to me. You are not spending money but if you open a pack day 1 and get 14k for one player, how do you think that player got 14k before the season even starts or finished one game?

While you have not spent money on your team, to which I commend you, you have benefited from those that have. Your team wouldn't be where it is right now unless someone spent money to get those points.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by AirmenSmith

This is the part that gets to me. You are not spending money but if you open a pack day 1 and get 14k for one player, how do you think that player got 14k before the season even starts or finished one game?

While you have not spent money on your team, to which I commend you, you have benefited from those that have. Your team wouldn't be where it is right now unless someone spent money to get those points.

I ask again... what's wrong with spending money?

[AirmenSmith]

Originally Posted by Orcin

I ask again... what's wrong with spending money?

I was just stating that you have to consider how a good team, like Boxner's, was created. No money spent on his part but he wouldn't have made 14k off one card if spending real money was allowed.

I wasn't trying to make a case for or against spending money. While I am completely against having non paying in the same league as P2W, I believe Boxner actually shows a benefit to having them in the same league.

[Radsmats]

I'm not saying it's impossible to improve a team and I don't object to throwing a little cash Marcus' way (I have purchased most of the versions of OOTP since about the third year). But as an introduction to Perfect Team, having a pay-to-win team in the kiddie pool sucks. The first year is a write-off for our whole division because of one person's desire to start at the top. With a little more thought in the seeding, the game could accommodate those of us who are playing for the challenge and those who want to swap all-stars in and out.

I have enjoyed poking around the auction and have the core of a pretty competitive bronze team for next year (one 5,000-point pack yielded Buster Posey and five garbage cards, in the others I got two closers but no power and no starting pitching, so I've been selling assets and trying to buy cheap). But it's late May / early June in game time and there's nothing to do except trawl the bargain bin and wait until I build up enough points to be able to shop for the next tier of players ... unless somebody feels like dropping 10,000 points or so on my Alvin Dark card in the next hour or two.

[Mat]

Originally Posted by Radsmats

The first year is a write-off for our whole division because of one person's desire to start at the top.

Wow.

Give everyone a trophy and PP. Otherwise the whole year is a write-off?

This new game mode has definitely brought out the worst in people.

[Radsmats]

Well, there's nothing to play for except a very long shot at a wild card, and once you've spent your available resources on cards, what's left besides waiting for more points to accrue? Avoiding the midsummer doldrums is why the real majors try to keep as many teams in the hunt as long as possible. And it's pretty clear I'm just trying to explain what I see as a problem, not whine about it, so I don't know where your attitude comes from.

[Mat]

Does there need to be anything else to do? This is not a game mode that requires constant attention and tinkering.

Let the points accumulate and strategize for the next season is what I did when I was in your situation.

Every baseball season has winners and losers. Otherwise, what is the point?

[Maddox]

Originally Posted by Mat

Does there need to be anything else to do? This is not a game mode that requires constant attention and tinkering.

Let the points accumulate and strategize for the next season is what I did when I was in your situation.

Every baseball season has winners and losers. Otherwise, what is the point?

I get what your trying to say but I definitely see the other side too. When you are already out of the race by Thursday because some whale of team is on the way to a 120 win season it does take some of the fun out of it. It is not as fun to check on the team. In fact the worse I am doing the less I log in and check.

I don't mind being a loser in the division, shoot I finished last in my division last season but I did not mind because the division was competitive even if my team wasn't.

One season, I can't remember if it was in Beta or the initial season that every division in my league had been clenched by whales before play even began on Saturday.

There is no way around it. Whales are going to pop up in the lower leagues from time to time. We all have to deal with it as buying teams is a valid way to play. But dealing with it and enjoying it are different things.

[Dunzie]

I think the best thing I did is start up a 2nd and 3rd team to follow. My A team is in diamond and fighting for the division lead and I’ve found out (sometimes the hard way) where is a good and bad way to spend my PP. This team has made the playoffs every year so far but never won a title. This year may be tougher as there really are no breaks from loaded teams.

But I had two silver teams last year in the same league and both had similar makeups and records. One missed the wild card by 1/2 game and the other by 2. Surprisingly one got promoted and one didn’t.

This season the promoted team is (maybe not surprisingly) struggling in gold... 11 games back in the division and I think 9 in the wild card hunt already. A 10 game losing skid and a 10-18 day today. And yet I’m enjoying it. It’s interesting to see what players can do against more stacked teams.

And the silver team that stayed put is doing very well. I think last I checked I had the top all star vote getter at 5 positions and again, similar makeup to the team struggling in gold.

Having experience with a diamond team has helped me strategize my other teams and it’s also fun trying different things with each team to see what works.

And I do think we are seeing evening out of the leagues now that there have been several seasons of promotion and relegation. Which will only get better.

[Mat]

Originally Posted by Maddox

I get what your trying to say but I definitely see the other side too. When you are already out of the race by Thursday because some whale of team is on the way to a 120 win season it does take some of the fun out of it. It is not as fun to check on the team. In fact the worse I am doing the less I log in and check.

I don't mind being a loser in the division, shoot I finished last in my division last season but I did not mind because the division was competitive even if my team wasn't.

One season, I can't remember if it was in Beta or the initial season that every division in my league had been clenched by whales before play even began on Saturday.

There is no way around it. Whales are going to pop up in the lower leagues from time to time. We all have to deal with it as buying teams is a valid way to play. But dealing with it and enjoying it are different things.

Some days will be more fun than others. Some days will be no fun at all.

Welcome to baseball.

Welcome to life.

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by Radsmats

Well, there's nothing to play for except a very long shot at a wild card, and once you've spent your available resources on cards, what's left besides waiting for more points to accrue? Avoiding the midsummer doldrums is why the real majors try to keep as many teams in the hunt as long as possible. And it's pretty clear I'm just trying to explain what I see as a problem, not whine about it, so I don't know where your attitude comes from.

Baseball has not ever been about only winning and nothing else. The best teams in baseball still lose ~40% of the time. I enjoy watching baseball even when my team loses.

I think this is why it's losing popularity. So many people are programmed to think everything is about winning or nothing.

[AirmenSmith]

Originally Posted by zrog2000

Baseball has not ever been about only winning and nothing else. The best teams in baseball still lose ~40% of the time. I enjoy watching baseball even when my team loses.

I think this is why it's losing popularity. So many people are programmed to think everything is about winning or nothing.

I can tell you are not a Yankee fan

[zrog2000]

Originally Posted by AirmenSmith

I can tell you are not a Yankee fan

I'm a Red Sox fan, but I'm close to 50. So I don't even get along with young Red Sox fans who start whining after a two game losing streak when they're on pace to win 108 games. Hell, they're whining by the 3rd inning if they're not up by 5 runs yet. If the players did what keeps these fans happy, they'd hit 150 home runs a year. I really do not get it. There is no instant gratification in baseball and a lot of times there is none. 29 out of 30 teams "fail" every season.

[Maddox]

Originally Posted by Mat

Some days will be more fun than others. Some days will be no fun at all.

Welcome to baseball.

Welcome to life.

That came off as all kinds of condescending but thanks for trying to teach this 54 year old about life.


I thought we were discussing a Game, not life.

[Zorro]

Originally Posted by Zorro

Guys, Just enjoy the game. OOTP is the same game. If you do not want to play PT don’t. If you want to spend money and can afford to do it then do it. Markus made PT a game of levels. That way players can play the way they want to. It is really unfair to complain about teams that are whales or whatever you call a team that wins to much. They will move on and you will be placed with teams of your own caliber. You do not need to buy PT but try not to discourage Markus and OOTP in trying to make some extra money. For years we have enjoyed hours and weeks and months of playing OOTP for 40 bucks. We can still do that. If some people want to play PT and spend money that is a good thing for this company we love. Complaining about good teams just seems like bad sportsmanship to me and also it kind of taints Markus who always has put out a pretty good game and now has a chance of making more money from it without charging more to us. That alone should make us happy. Let’s just play the game the way we want and congratulate the whales or the rich get richer on helping OOTP make more money and I have already seen the better response we are getting from the Mods. Look at the whole picture, This is a wonderful game for 40 bucks.

Here I go again, Agreeing with myself.....

[humboldt1498]

For everyone complaining about the whales, do you realize that the market is flooded with quality cards because of all the packs they buy?

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[Weaseltail]

Originally Posted by humboldt1498

For everyone complaining about the whales, do you realize that the market is flooded with quality cards because of all the packs they buy?

They also help Markus & Co. pay the bills and have the resources and motivation to keep improving PT. We should be happy people like the game enough to pay money to improve their teams.

The problem isn't the whales, it's the way promotions are handled. There needs to be a better way of grouping teams so leagues aren't so unbalanced.