Fans of OOTP - eductate me...

[gmo]

Originally Posted by BigCity

Maybe it's something that can't be avoided - the way of the "new world" but if there was anything I could leave you with from this, it would be that we love being a part of the "team" in some way, and anything that helps that feeling along would be extremely welcomed

I have gradually gotten more involved since V4, and the impression I get was that Markus presence here and interaction has gradually diminished over that time. A lot of people seem to miss the good ol' days.

I think the job SI has done has been just fine. More would be nice, but I do not feel we are owed or deserve more. From the H2H issue in particular I would recommend more lawyer-speak and careful phrasing - until a version or patch is released with the features included, only say that the features are "planned" or something like that. Some people would still complain, but their ground to stand on would be weaker. Make sure people can only say the game does not measure up in their opinion (which can certainly be a fair issue) and not that it does not provide things (like H2H) that were explicitly stated as in the game.

Perhaps more information on the process could be sent out like that. Eugene Church has asked for monthly or bi-monthly few paragraph reports from Markus. Those could include some hopes, plans, progress reports, problems, etc, but no promises. There might not be much active back-and-forth feedback in that, but it would make the process more transparent and I think satiate us to some extent. As it is now it seems there are only rare announcements or patch releases coming out of the blue. Maybe dispersing info like this is not even feasible, but it is something I at least believe I would like.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by gmo

Perhaps more information on the process could be sent out like that. Eugene Church has asked for monthly or bi-monthly few paragraph reports from Markus. Those could include some hopes, plans, progress reports, problems, etc, but no promises. There might not be much active back-and-forth feedback in that, but it would make the process more transparent and I think satiate us to some extent.

I think this is certainly going to happen, but not for a few months.

[gmo]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

I think this is certainly going to happen, but not for a few months.

That's great new, in a couple months.

What you SI guys, Marcs in particular, are doing here for the old OOTP crowd is really good. But the craving for information and improvement is never ending. Each new progress report or version/patch listing additions and changes we move quickly from how great those are to "what about X? can you fix that, change that, or put that in too?"

Some time back Markus mentioned that down the line he hopes for a 2-D engine and that has kept from being expected at any given moment. Having some idea of what is going on with the development, even some things in their early stages, would make it more obvious that Markus/SI is doing what we the community want. Really it is obvious from features that have been added over time, e.g. much of what is to be in 6.5, that ideas are heard. But it is easy to forget that we are being heard when it even seems that there is nothing or very little between suggestions and discussion by members on the board and when the ideas come out in features of the game. We fans have such short memories!

It has not all been perfect (like the H2H thing), but I am overall happy with how OOTP has advanced all the to now since I have been with it. If Markus & his old group and the new SI group keep at it with the game and community, coming around like this for input on how to possibly make things better, I expect that I and many others will continue to be satisfied. But of course never completely satisfied

[RchW]

Mark,

First off thank you for opening up this dialogue. No matter where one stands on the issues discussed here, this is a good thing.

I am very much a newcomer to OOTP and this wild and wonderful baseball gaming community. As such I can't empathize with anyone who feels a sense of loss of community, nor can I feel cheated about features that did not make it into the game before I discovered its existence. The reality is that in order for OOTP to continue to grow, more new customers like me will have to buy, and we will only be able to evaluate the game on its current merits. Two years from now that will apply to me and so on.

I'm not suggesting for one minute that the disappointments and criticisms of the past are unjustified. However some battles must be lost in order to win the war.

The concerns about lack of direct communication with Markus are real but are an inevitable casualty of the growth of the business due in large part to this community. I'd challenge anyone on this board who has been in any business environment for more than 10 years to tell me that nothing has changed. The business owners that I used to call on 16 years ago now have vice presidents and general managers etc because they grew. I don't like that personally but it puts money in the bank account for them and me.

I'm not making excuses for Markus or for SI here, I'm just giving a newcomers perspective. This is one of the really interesting places to spend time these days and I hope it doesn't stop being what it is.

[gohorns98]

Marc,

I have been using OOTP since version 4, and have been happy with the game every time. I was not concerned with H2H when version 6 was coming out as I played mainly solo leagues, but I can see how online leagues would get very excited about that feature. Yet, online play continues to grow as can been seen by the online forum that advertises new leagues almost everyday.

Version 6 was an ambitious project. The rework of the game engine turned out great in my opinion. Yet, some of the "promises/wishes" of Markus were not able to be put in. Version 7 seems to be an even more ambitious task. This is why it is best not to advertise features until they are garunteed to be in the game.

As far as the community goes, I wish there were more "official voices" in the forums. I have played CM/FM/WWSM since CM99/00, and have been impressed by SI's forums and the response of what seems to be people who work directly with the development of the game. We use to have that all the time, but because of the growth of the game and community it has become less and less. The only offical voices are Markus and Steve Kuffrey (I know you and Marc Vaughn are offical as well). There are great people like LGO, Bigh City, Tiger Fan, etc. that help, but we never know if they are in the know. In the FM forums I see the SI logo in the avatars of the people who area a part of the SI "team." I know that they are not all paid by SI, but it make me feel like a question has been answered by someone who knows. Maybe if we had more people who we all knew had knowledge straight from the top the sense of community would continue to be fostered.

[thomamon]

Time for me to add my thoughts and opinion...

First off, about H2H. You see, sometime when Markus was working on OOTP 6, something came down where he agreed to a deal and the future of OOTP had been changed, OOTP would now be joining SI Interactive. All of a sudden the time and effort for the current version of OOTP was cut dramatically and probably the most noticeable effect was H2H was never completed.

If Markus had never agreed to join SI, he would have had more time for the last version, and we probably would have seen H2H in this past version. But the decision was made to move forward with an all new version of the game, a version which with all hopes should be the best OOTP and baseball sim to date. Now, you may be upset for H2H not making it in the last version, but I'm not sure how much you can fault a person for making a decision that they feel would make a much better game in the future. Why put more work into a game that is no longer going to be developed in the near future when you can use that time to better the new product.

I agree with the rest of the board tho Marc, I would have loved to see some more information on OOTP 7. You say you want feedback and our input and we're telling you we would like just a little more information. Yet, your not really giving anything else. I mean, you don't have to go mentioning features that may or may not be in the new game, but I am sure Markus can give us an update from time to time on what he's working on as he did when he was working on the game engine.

As we were hoping for some more information on OOTP 7, a decision was made to push back the release about six months. But instead of announcing the push back, something VERY clever happened. OOTP 6.5 was announced and I am sure you and Markus came up with this great plan together. What can we do to take the attention away from the push back. Markus was given permission to work on an update to his last version. He took time away from developing OOTP 7, to go back and work on his last project. But it paid so much for Markus and SI to do this, because instead of the negative feedback of the game being pushed back, this board is excited for another release that will hold us over to OOTP 7 is released. And I am sure your hoping this release will also keep us occupied enough to forget about OOTP 7 for just a little while, until your ready to release more information to the public. I applaud you for this, it was an absolutely brilliant move, but as soon as read what was happening, I figured it all out.

This is just my opinion, please no personal offense was meant towards anyone here at all.

Thanks for listening Mark.

Tom

[statfreak]

BigCity and TigerFan pretty much said everything I could.

Side note, is it really that difficult for you guys to use the correct spelling of Marc Duffy and Markus Heinsohn?!? Please, take the 3 seconds to make sure you correctly spelled their names when posting.

Thank you.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

How do you feel about what you have been given so far on OOTP7?

Well, the coverage from a couple of months back that Markus gave was great. I'd like to see more stuff like that, though understandably the detail covered would likely be less, and it certainly wouldn't be all that often. But something like that every once in awhile definitely whets my appetite.

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

If you are not happy with what you have now, how would you feel if we listed a load of features that in the end never made it?

It wouldn't bother me; as I said, I've been around the computer gaming block more than once.

Naturally, only features that are under serious consideration, or have a reasonable chance of making it in, should be discussed. Now, if it turns out some feature that had been planned had to be cut for one reason or another, I'd be a bit disappointed but it certainly wouldn't impact on my opinion of the game or my decision to purchase it or not. In the end I always make that choice on the basis of what's in the actual released game, and whether the final product looks to be entertaining and a good value.

But like I said, I'm somewhat unusual in that I'm fairly pragmatic and rational in my computer game buying...

[HolyCow98]

If my memory is correct...Markus visits and postings on these forums always decreased when he was knee deep in coding. You could almost see the cycle. He would visit and be involved in quite a few threads (the gathering of ideas ect)...than you would start to see a drop off...which I always believed meant he had begun coding. After that you would see him occasionally for an update...or to announce something...or even occasionally...a "how would you like this to be ...A or B?". As the game was given over to the beta team...you once again would see in increase of Markus on the boards....then the game comes out....in which he seemingly starts working on the first initial patch that night or shortly there after. You never saw him much though when he was coding....on vacation...sick (which you'll find posts on lol)...or back in the day...when he was finishing up his degree...

Once the initial bugs are squashed, or some last minute minor additions are implemented, he goes for a mini-vacation for about a week. Gets back...starts on the first update...and from that point on is fairly active on the boards.

So what is the difference??....It could be that it is the merger with SI...or it could be he is really busy coding a new game (since I've heard more than once that he had worked on it for months and hadn't use one line of OOTP 6 code).

I personally feel it is the latter and not the former...but what do I know...I could be wrong.

While I agree with the Mom and Pop store label....as the game grows...and company gets larger (or in this case..becomes a piece of a larger entity) it will become harder for it to "feel" that way. I don't get the impression that SI operates in a way where they aren't taking feedback and suggestions from the gamers. I also do not think Markus will disregard the wishes and wants of his core group of customers....namely this community.

As far as the disclosure of game info....I have posted before...that I don't think it is good idea to ever announce or advertise anything you are not yet sure will be in the game. IMO, in his passion and zeal for the game, is where Markus really PO'd a sizable % of his customers with the whole H2H issue. For me it was never more than a novelty ( a cool one however)...but when I heard it was only for exhibition games...it wasn't too big of a deal for me. You can debate principles or business till you blue in the face...but customers were unhappy...which eventually will effect bottom line if repeated too many times. Those customers trust in the company took a hit over that issue...its up to the company to do what it can to regain said trust (unless they don't care) to avoid losing potential customers...potential money...and of course bottom line.

What I do expect in terms of pre-release info are:
Screen Shots
The Core New Features (the things you know 100% are going to be coded in or already coded in or the release will be delayed until it is completed.)

I think before you sit down to code anything, you should have a pretty good size list of things you know you are capable of implementing and have the time to do. I do not mind not knowing the more minor additions or improvements until later...or knowing the mode based addtions (meaning things that only effect online, historical leagues). Everyone will have different views on this..some want to know everything...some want only to know if the key things "they" wanted to know are in there. Nothing wrong no matter what view you have.

Progress reports are nice...but I don't really expect them. Release dates are okay...but again...I always prefer for the game to live up to the designers expectations over trying to get the game out to reach a release date.

I love this community...but my core interest is the game....if the game is right...than that is all I care about. However, in the case of sports text sims...you will not have a good customer base or a good game without a strong community. We buy these games not for how they look....but how they "play". If we don't have a medium to discuss how we want the game played...or have designers who listen and take full advantage of that medium....than you will never be as successful as you could be in producing the best game possible.

I'm not sure I'm an old-timer or just a veteran...but I think most frequent posters...and I suspect many more who do not post, have become quite attatched to OOTP. With the merger with SI, the complete rewrite, and the changes that have been side effects from that, OOTP and this community is changing. Its normal to be concerned on some level when you enjoy something as much as most of do, and you know it is changing...you worry..become a little more negative perhaps. Personally...I'm in wait and see mode. I know I'll buy OOTP 7 (or whatever the name ends up being)...I hope for it to be an improvement over the previous versions....and apart of me is hoping that it still feels like that familiar friend I've been playing since OOTP3. Not all change is bad...and hopefully the merger to with SI, the complete rewrite ect..will be change for the good. As my dad use to say..."the proof is in the pudding"...so we'll all just have to see how this turns out.

I try to avoid these type of threads as they almost always turn into a mud slinging affair...but I was bored...couln't sleep...and just felt like saying a couple of things.

[SSG Troyer]

Marc, I've been playing OOTP since 3 ... Marcus has amazed me in the past. Once, I had an issue with a part of the game. It was a tiny, insignificant thing. I searched this board for previous postings, found none, so I made a thread about it. It died quickly, with fewer than ten responses, none from Marcus or any offical entity. But when the next patch came out, there was my issue, dealt with. I felt personally involved.

I realize SI does this, too. What SI has and this board has lacked is a consistant offical presence. Marcus being one man and all, he got some underlings to poke around a little ... but it's not the the SI boards, where Ter and others are there durnnear every day. An SI avatar being a regular part of the boards does wonders. This board had more of that in the past, and less of it as time went on. People felt increasingly abandoned.

All we really want/need is to know, by seeing that cutesie little avatar on a regular, frequent basis, that SI is here with us.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by gohorns98

In the FM forums I see the SI logo in the avatars of the people who area a part of the SI "team." I know that they are not all paid by SI, but it make me feel like a question has been answered by someone who knows. Maybe if we had more people who we all knew had knowledge straight from the top the sense of community would continue to be fostered.

Anyone who has an SI logo by their name is indeed an SI employee.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by thomamon

I agree with the rest of the board tho Marc, I would have loved to see some more information on OOTP 7. You say you want feedback and our input and we're telling you we would like just a little more information. Yet, your not really giving anything else. I mean, you don't have to go mentioning features that may or may not be in the new game, but I am sure Markus can give us an update from time to time on what he's working on as he did when he was working on the game engine.

Nothing personal taken

Hasnt Markus, via his two updates given you some info on whats in OOTP7?

I cannot be clearer, we WILL be giving you lots of info on the game in the coming months, you just cannot have it now and you cannot have it all at once.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Well, the coverage from a couple of months back that Markus gave was great. I'd like to see more stuff like that, though understandably the detail covered would likely be less, and it certainly wouldn't be all that often. But something like that every once in awhile definitely whets my appetite.

It wouldn't bother me; as I said, I've been around the computer gaming block more than once.

Naturally, only features that are under serious consideration, or have a reasonable chance of making it in, should be discussed. Now, if it turns out some feature that had been planned had to be cut for one reason or another, I'd be a bit disappointed but it certainly wouldn't impact on my opinion of the game or my decision to purchase it or not. In the end I always make that choice on the basis of what's in the actual released game, and whether the final product looks to be entertaining and a good value.

But like I said, I'm somewhat unusual in that I'm fairly pragmatic and rational in my computer game buying...

For everyone of you there are 10 who'll jump up and down and tell us we suck!

Of course there will be more updates on the game, but not just yet. I'd much rather the OOTP team could concentrate on adding stuff in for a while before we go round telling everyone the good news.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by HolyCow98

I try to avoid these type of threads as they almost always turn into a mud slinging affair...but I was bored...couln't sleep...and just felt like saying a couple of things.

Thanks for your comments. Noted and appreciated!

I certainly think this thread has been full of (honest) contructive stuff and is a thread well worth being part of.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by SSG Troyer

All we really want/need is to know, by seeing that cutesie little avatar on a regular, frequent basis, that SI is here with us.

I'm here! Hug me!

[TheRockCT]

I definitely enjoy seeing that this thread has reached this point without any name-calling, or the exhausting debate of excessive bashing vs. the outlandish defense of the game that nothing constructive can be said about the product or its development team. I have been around since OOTP3, and even though I did not start out here in these forums being the most productive poster, I was a Grade A Lurker, and I agree with those 100% who have expressed their opinions that the community did FEEL of a tighter knit 2-3 years ago.

I am unsure if that is a matter of customer saturation that has occured with every passing version of the game, or if Markus has just adopted a personal policy of not ending up in another H2H situation with information revelation. I can see his side of things, even if he just posts about some of the features he is THINKING about including, there will be those people who claim that it is a stone-written feature that will be in the next installment of the game. On the other hand, I can understand how scorned some people felt at the H2H being advertised for so long, and never coming through. There was indeed a long wait just to learn of its abandonment, and that just "looked bad," even if you were not interested in H2H.

The disappointment has since turned into an issue that MOST of us have become tired of hearing about, the "beating of a dead horse" has become the most popular cliche around here. I think that most of us would still like to see H2H implemented in some future version of the game, even if we'd never use it. The more features that can be added into a game you love (without bugs of course), the better the chances of more person-specific desires can be added as technology improves, and the coding for each version becomes more efficient.

The development team has also suffered from a little burnout at the moderation of the forums, constant duplicate questions that arise, or combination of other factors. I sympathize with them, and I completely realize that they rarely know more about the course of the game's development than we do, but I can understand that it's a thankless job as well and that it gets hard to keep things fresh. There will always be messageboard feuds that get too far out of control, idiots to ban, irate customers that will do whatever they can to deface the company, and new customers who post questions that have been answered 200 times.

But there are hundreds of us at least who have been here a long time, who have simulated hundreds of seasons, or watched their online league migrate from version to version. There are those of us who have poured a ton of sweat into making add-ons, downloads, download sites, and other mods and utilities that keep making this game THE best baseball simulator on the market.

It's those people that WANT to feel like they are in the interior of the company itself, almost as if we were employees who simply don't get paid. Our payment is seeing this game grow and become better with every passing version, so ongoing conversation with those developing the game is definitely something I would like to see more of around here. I understand the dilemma of unfulfilled promises, but it would bring me around here a lot more often to know that developers were taking the time to chat with us, debate with us, and give us the occasional hint of what we can expect for the direction of OOTP.

[Treches]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

I cannot be clearer, we WILL be giving you lots of info on the game in the coming months, you just cannot have it now and you cannot have it all at once.

The thing here, Marc, is that baseball, being so heavily influenced by stats and sporting such a complex roster rules, has many things that's better to prevent and discuss in advance than react later on. Take DIPS or the 40-man roster in OOTP6, for example.

In my opinion, the interaction between developer and customers started to be less frequent before SI came to town (at least, not what it used to be), but seems to be reaching an all-time low nowadays. Certainly, there are some folks who are just interested in knowing what features will make the cut, the fancy stuff and the likes, but I doubt the fellas posting here are talking about that. Getting to know some things in advance before they are implemented would save plenty of coding time and even save the game from itself. The "Poise" thread is a good example of that.

I don't know the first thing about marketing a product, so your policy of not sending out much info may be the correct one (after all, OOTP has become the game to beat and competitors visit the forum pretty often), but remember that most folks here are more interested in the game's backbone than its dress and decoration.

[thomamon]

Originally Posted by Marc Duffy

Nothing personal taken

Hasnt Markus, via his two updates given you some info on whats in OOTP7?

I cannot be clearer, we WILL be giving you lots of info on the game in the coming months, you just cannot have it now and you cannot have it all at once.

Actually, as I said earler, I think what has happened this past week was great. He announced a new version while giving us the news about OOTP 7 being pushed back. Let me also say, I have no problem with it being pushed back, I think it's great you guys have announced this early that it was pushed back instead of when it gets closer. I would rather see it take longer to come out and get done right, instead of waiting for fixes and additions in patches. So far I really commend what has been done this past week.

If there is anything else we can do to help you, we would be glad to help.

TM

[Eugene Church]

Originally Posted by TheRockCT

But there are hundreds of us at least who have been here a long time, who have simulated hundreds of seasons, or watched their online league migrate from version to version. There are those of us who have poured a ton of sweat into making add-ons, downloads, download sites, and other mods and utilities that keep making this game THE best baseball simulator on the market.

It's those people that WANT to feel like they are in the interior of the company itself, almost as if we were employees who simply don't get paid. Our payment is seeing this game grow and become better with every passing version, so ongoing conversation with those developing the game is definitely something I would like to see more of around here. I understand the dilemma of unfulfilled promises, but it would bring me around here a lot more often to know that developers were taking the time to chat with us, debate with us, and give us the occasional hint of what we can expect for the direction of OOTP.

Fine post by TheRockCT.

Markus and the folks at SI could make a lot of dedicated OOTPB members very happy by posting a Monthly or Quarterly Progress Report.

It would be very helpful if SI would have someone "in the know" to comment on IMPORTANT questions, dilemmas and problems that arise on this forum.

It really is great when Markus chimes in and let's us "really" know how something works in the game. I remember once we had a discussion going about "pitcher fatigue" and the members were giving their opinions...some right, some wrong, some close to the truth...but when Markus chimed in and OFFICIALLY said pitchers GRADUALLY lost effectivelness and didn't do it all at once ("when they turned red on the screen), WE KNEW THE ANSWER...and no longer had to wonder or discuss or debate without finding out for sure.

And once...in the last few months...when for the "eleventy eleventh time" I posted my pet peeve about missing play results and listed them ad nauseum...Markus chimed in and made my day, made my year and greatly thrilled and improved my OOTPB life...he stated that there would definitely be improvement in this area of the game in OOTP7.

I used to post often on the "Wish List and Suggestions Forum"...used to read and look forward to it everyday...I would keep notes as I played the game...what plays were missing from the game, text errors, spelling and grammar errors, bugs....but after V3, V4 and V5 came out without addressing this issue...It suddenly occurred to me (Yeah, I am a slow learner)...I realized that I was pretty much wasting my time because no one 'IN THE KNOW" or "IN AN OFFICIAL CAPACITY" responded to my postings or the community's posting...rarely did we get a response.

Community members often volunteer to do the "grunt work" for Markus...like write play-by-play text...and have offered their creations to create stadiums, schedules and various mods like Catobase (not too sure this was offered free)...and at no cost to OOTPB.

Rarely was there an "Official" response.

I don't post much there anymore...and I don't keep notes much anymore...because OOTPB doesn't "seem" to be listening.

I always hear that Markus is busy doing code and doesn't have the time to respond to "every" request on the forums...I would totally agree with that accessment...

But I don't think he is too busy to give us a Progress Report every month or every quarter. No human being is that busy. It wouldn't take him anytime at all to take his "work list of features that will be in, that will work, that he wants in, that might be in, that might work, that won't work and that probably will never be in the game"...you stated in an earlier post in this thread that he has a list...and have an assistant post it.

Regular and truthful communication is very important in every aspect of our lives...especially in the "really important things" like OOTPB.

Marc, thanks for listening...and letting us know here on the Forum that you are listening and care about what we think....and letting us know directly.

You should make sure someone with SI is always listening and responding on this forum.

[Marc Duffy]

Originally Posted by Treches

I don't know the first thing about marketing a product, so your policy of not sending out much info may be the correct one (after all, OOTP has become the game to beat and competitors visit the forum pretty often), but remember that most folks here are more interested in the game's backbone than its dress and decoration.

Be patient and it will come!