Why does David Eckstein still have a job? - Page 4

sebastian0622 · 04-22-2005, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclone792

Because there's more than just a handful of Major League Idiots sitting in the front offices. Jim Bowden, for one, immediately comes to mind!

Perhaps.

I just think Eck was a good fit for the Cards. They got him without giving anything up, and he's at least proven he can consistently hit at the big league level and make the plays that he is supposed to. Add in that he can bunt, advance runners, and not strike out much, and they figured they didn't need much slugging from this guy considering the rest of their lineup.

There may be a lot of other guys out there who can do what he can do, or better, and some may be in AAA, but you'd have to give up something to get them, and they might get to the bigs and hit .216 with 19 errors. You just don't know. At least Eck was proven, and he is fairly cheap for a post-arbitration guy.

Cyclone792 · 04-22-2005, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

Perhaps.

I just think Eck was a good fit for the Cards. They got him without giving anything up, and he's at least proven he can consistently hit at the big league level and make the plays that he is supposed to. Add in that he can bunt, advance runners, and not strike out much, and they figured they didn't need much slugging from this guy considering the rest of their lineup.

There may be a lot of other guys out there who can do what he can do, or better, and some may be in AAA, but you'd have to give up something to get them, and they might get to the bigs and hit .216 with 19 errors. You just don't know. At least Eck was proven, and he is fairly cheap for a post-arbitration guy.

Well, Eckstein and his $2 million salary isn't going to kill the Cards. We are only talking about a difference of approx. $1.5 mil, depending on the actual replacement SS.

Still, it's the whole thought process that gets me. Why any general manager would say "Ok, let's pay $2 million per year for this kind of production" completely blows my mind, when just a little research could produce several replacement level players in AAA that'd make the minimum. It's that same thought process that results in other, more meaningful/shoot-yourself-in-the-foot signings, sort of like Eric Milton making about $25 million over three years...

JDOldSchool · 04-22-2005, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

You could find a SS of comparable overall value on just about any AAA team. If you were to look up "replacement level" in the dictionary, there would be a picture of Eckstein next to it.

A second point, I wouldn't give a guy $2 million for a .97x fielding percentage or a .340 OBP. Neither of those stats are impressive, and they're almost totally meaningless when you're talking about a guy with no range and an SLG of .333.

Except he DOES have range. The defensive metrics I trust say so. And since when is a .347 OBP not a good thing? Admittedly, it's not great for a leadoff hitter but it's not horrible. Only 5 shortstops who qualify had a better OBP than Eckstein last year. Factor in that Anaheim has played in a pitcher's park for the past three seasons and Eckstein is certainly worth $2 million, especially when you compare that to what Cabrera is making.

mlyons · 04-22-2005, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bulldog55

When I do finally get my OTB the wait will make it all the sweeter.

You see, the thing is, the guy who gives out the "On The Boards" goes by the nickname "Eckstein 4 Prez", and your comment, while witty, could possibly be construed as casting aspersions on Mr. Eckstein. Let's just say I don't think you should hold your breath.

bulldog55 · 04-22-2005, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyons

You see, the thing is, the guy who gives out the "On The Boards" goes by the nickname "Eckstein 4 Prez", and your comment, while witty, could possibly be construed as casting aspersions on Mr. Eckstein. Let's just say I don't think you should hold your breath.

I think Mr. Prez has the objectivity as well as the self-esteem to look past potentially offensive jokes and see the inherent humor value, knowing that my retort was aimed more at providing said humor value than insulting the man of his namesake.

mlyons · 04-22-2005, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bulldog55

I think Mr. Prez has the objectivity as well as the self-esteem to look past potentially offensive jokes and see the inherent humor value, knowing that my retort was aimed more at providing said humor value than insulting the man of his namesake.

Still, this could be considered a matter of principle. Certain lines that just shouldn't be crossed, and so forth. After all, he does want the man to be the president, right?

bulldog55 · 04-22-2005, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyons

Still, this could be considered a matter of principle. Certain lines that just shouldn't be crossed, and so forth. After all, he does want the man to be the president, right?

I question whether he literally wants the man to be president or if it is simply a hyperbole to express his great admiration for the man as a baseball player, as is tradition amongst baseball fanatics, or "fans." I must imagine a man in the legal profession would put some weight into the qualifications of a candidate before supporting their bid for presidency.

Davey Eckstein · 04-22-2005, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDOldSchool

Except he DOES have range. The defensive metrics I trust say so.

Elaborate, sir.

El Cid · 04-23-2005, 02:39 AM

here' how I think the decision process went

Owner--We need a SS Renetria is old and expensive and with our slary I want a cheap one whose available

GM---We have blah blah in AAA

How good is he?

He's projected to be .270 10 hr 20 2bs 50 walks

We are defending NL champs, we need a proven player not projections our fans are no dummies

Well we have that Eckstein guy he has hit such and such over the past x years and is not bad defensively

what else has he got?

Well he seems to be quite popular among various fans, kids, womena dn men like him for some reason

So we could market him and get more fans in the seats, even more than last year? Plus sell memorbillia with his name on it?

Yes

How much is he?

2 million, with an estimate on his fan support, and getting him cheap will give us enough money to get Mark Mulder, I say his value would be X amount of dollars in OUR favor

SOLD!

Thank you, that is my mini acting for the year

TotalEnd98 · 04-23-2005, 02:58 AM

Not that I think Eckstein is worth $2 million, but 2000-2003 UZR has him ranked third among shortstops. So I would wager he's not as terrible as people are claiming.

rem · 04-23-2005, 03:00 AM

Interestingly enough, the dude who did UZR now works for the Cards.

UngratefulDead · 04-23-2005, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Cid

Owner--We need a SS Renetria is old and expensive and with our slary I want a cheap one whose available

Ummmm... I don't think he's even 30..

JDOldSchool · 04-23-2005, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davey Eckstein

Elaborate, sir.

K.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TotalEnd98

2000-2003 UZR has him ranked third among shortstops. So I would wager he's not as terrible as people are claiming.

That's what I was saying... I just didn't say it explicitly because I think mysterious posts could help me in June Madness.

And I was too lazy to type anymore than I did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by remangiii

Interestingly enough, the dude who did UZR now works for the Cards.

Yeah, which is likely no coincidence. If the A's, Red Sox, Dodgers, and Cardinals all make the playoffs this year I wonder if people will start to realize the positives of sabermetrics.

UngratefulDead · 04-23-2005, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDOldSchool

Yeah, which is likely no coincidence. If the A's, Red Sox, Dodgers, and Cardinals all make the playoffs this year I wonder if people will start to realize the positives of sabermetrics.

If the Giants make the playoffs d'ya think Willie Mays is poised for a comeback?

dougaiton · 04-23-2005, 06:22 AM

JD and TE are quite right. The myth that Eckstein is bad defensively is a myth, because he looks so bad doing it. However, any defensive metric worth its salt ranks Eckstein as pretty darn good.

I strongly doubt that the Cards are using FP% and RF to judge . They used to (still do?) employ MGL or TangoTiger (I forget which), who have regularly emphasised that Eckstein is severely underrated, and that in practical terms - the balls he gets to, the balls he doesn't - is one of the best SSs in the major leagues. I have no doubt this is right.

Again, all the evidence (advanced metrics) suggests that Eckstein is a good SS, perhaps an upgrade on Renteria (who has been overrated). He is certainly an equal, if not better, of Cabrera. Everything our eyes tell us might say different, but the St. Louis scouts believe he's good too, so where does that put our subjective judgement?

enuttage · 04-23-2005, 09:48 AM

What is UZR? The link provided must take into account defense only. Would that be correct?

I think after sleeping on this one and reading through some more posts, Eckstein might be a perfect poster child for the missing link between old school baseball and new (although not really all that new, just on the forefront with Moneyball and Mr. Epstein over in Boston) baseball.

He's the quintessential example of a hardscrabble type fella who plays his guts out every day. Who wouldn't like that? I think I might WANT him on my team as a utility guy. However, because of his tough little guy image, I think it inflates his value to a level that's much higher than it should be.

However, it also brings up another great point. We still don't have any good (meaning universal and acceptable) way to determine what makes up good defense. I want to know more about UZR though. I do buy the argument, however, that fielding percentage can be a joke at times.

I may've underestimated Eckstein's defensive prowess, because I simply don't know how good he is. His RF is below average, but his FP is above average.

I didn't underestimate his offensive prowess though. It's pretty anemic, good bunter or no. And he's FAR from deserving of a #2 hitter's spot. Leadoff? Maybe. Depends on the year.

And for clarification, his OBP last year was .339, not .347, which places him 9th on the qualified SS list. Julio Lugo and Royce Clayton both had .338 OBPs. Let's throw those two guys in the mix as well. Eckstein had a lower BA than all but two of these guys (Lugo and K. Greene), a lower SLG percentage than ALL of the top 11. (next to last in ALL qualified SS - 2nd to last in OPS, even with that OBP), walked fewer times than ALL of the top 11, and had a worse SB% than all but 3-4 (not doing math on the ones that are close). Only Craig Counsell hit the same number of HRs. All other SSs hit more.

His defense better be VERY good.

-E

Gastric ReFlux · 04-23-2005, 10:55 AM

The Major Leagues is using him to appeal to the midget demographic, which is huge in the consumer market.

enuttage · 04-23-2005, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gastric ReFlux

The Major Leagues is using him to appeal to the midget demographic, which is huge in the consumer market.

lol.

On the flipside, Eck is one of the many reasons baseball is my favorite sport. Serious diversity in ethnic background, size, weight, athletic ability, etc.

-E

Gastric ReFlux · 04-23-2005, 11:04 AM

Yeah, I like Eck. I was a short guy when I played in little league and Babe Ruth ball.

JDOldSchool · 04-23-2005, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enuttage

And for clarification, his OBP last year was .339, not .347, which places him 9th on the qualified SS list. Julio Lugo and Royce Clayton both had .338 OBPs.

My mistake. The .347 was his career number and I was looking at just the AL and not all of baseball when I said he was 6th in OBP. Still, 9th isn't all that bad. Even in a down year, Eckstein is A) better than Cabrera all around and B) worth $2 million in this current market.

04-23-2005, 02:58 AM	#70
TotalEnd98 All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: New York Posts: 1,687	Not that I think Eckstein is worth $2 million, but 2000-2003 UZR has him ranked third among shortstops. So I would wager he's not as terrible as people are claiming. __________________ OTBL - Scandinavia Cartoon Heroes This is the way the world ends Not with a bang but a whimper.

04-23-2005, 03:00 AM	#71
rem Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: College Park, Md. Posts: 5,024	Interestingly enough, the dude who did UZR now works for the Cards. __________________ OTBA: Washington Filibusters CLBR: Minnesota Twins 2005 Winner of LL's Pick the Loser Contest! - 15-0

04-23-2005, 06:22 AM	#75
dougaiton Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Location: Posts: 3,414	JD and TE are quite right. The myth that Eckstein is bad defensively is a myth, because he looks so bad doing it. However, any defensive metric worth its salt ranks Eckstein as pretty darn good. I strongly doubt that the Cards are using FP% and RF to judge . They used to (still do?) employ MGL or TangoTiger (I forget which), who have regularly emphasised that Eckstein is severely underrated, and that in practical terms - the balls he gets to, the balls he doesn't - is one of the best SSs in the major leagues. I have no doubt this is right. Again, all the evidence (advanced metrics) suggests that Eckstein is a good SS, perhaps an upgrade on Renteria (who has been overrated). He is certainly an equal, if not better, of Cabrera. Everything our eyes tell us might say different, but the St. Louis scouts believe he's good too, so where does that put our subjective judgement? __________________ tThis shower of clowns My park-adjusted, historically split Born in '69 league file! (also at Joe's wonderful site +BBSC) Last edited by dougaiton; 04-23-2005 at 06:29 AM.

04-23-2005, 09:48 AM	#76
enuttage Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Hill Country Posts: 2,431	What is UZR? The link provided must take into account defense only. Would that be correct? I think after sleeping on this one and reading through some more posts, Eckstein might be a perfect poster child for the missing link between old school baseball and new (although not really all that new, just on the forefront with Moneyball and Mr. Epstein over in Boston) baseball. He's the quintessential example of a hardscrabble type fella who plays his guts out every day. Who wouldn't like that? I think I might WANT him on my team as a utility guy. However, because of his tough little guy image, I think it inflates his value to a level that's much higher than it should be. However, it also brings up another great point. We still don't have any good (meaning universal and acceptable) way to determine what makes up good defense. I want to know more about UZR though. I do buy the argument, however, that fielding percentage can be a joke at times. I may've underestimated Eckstein's defensive prowess, because I simply don't know how good he is. His RF is below average, but his FP is above average. I didn't underestimate his offensive prowess though. It's pretty anemic, good bunter or no. And he's FAR from deserving of a #2 hitter's spot. Leadoff? Maybe. Depends on the year. And for clarification, his OBP last year was .339, not .347, which places him 9th on the qualified SS list. Julio Lugo and Royce Clayton both had .338 OBPs. Let's throw those two guys in the mix as well. Eckstein had a lower BA than all but two of these guys (Lugo and K. Greene), a lower SLG percentage than ALL of the top 11. (next to last in ALL qualified SS - 2nd to last in OPS, even with that OBP), walked fewer times than ALL of the top 11, and had a worse SB% than all but 3-4 (not doing math on the ones that are close). Only Craig Counsell hit the same number of HRs. All other SSs hit more. His defense better be VERY good. -E __________________ The former GM of the WHBL Managua Four Roses *"The best way to find out if you can trust somebody is to trust them."* Last edited by enuttage; 04-23-2005 at 09:52 AM.

04-23-2005, 02:39 AM	#69
El Cid Registered User Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 30	here' how I think the decision process went Owner--We need a SS Renetria is old and expensive and with our slary I want a cheap one whose available GM---We have blah blah in AAA How good is he? He's projected to be .270 10 hr 20 2bs 50 walks We are defending NL champs, we need a proven player not projections our fans are no dummies Well we have that Eckstein guy he has hit such and such over the past x years and is not bad defensively what else has he got? Well he seems to be quite popular among various fans, kids, womena dn men like him for some reason So we could market him and get more fans in the seats, even more than last year? Plus sell memorbillia with his name on it? Yes How much is he? 2 million, with an estimate on his fan support, and getting him cheap will give us enough money to get Mark Mulder, I say his value would be X amount of dollars in OUR favor SOLD! Thank you, that is my mini acting for the year

04-23-2005, 10:55 AM	#77
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	The Major Leagues is using him to appeal to the midget demographic, which is huge in the consumer market.

04-23-2005, 11:04 AM	#79
Gastric ReFlux Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Member #3409 Posts: 8,350	Yeah, I like Eck. I was a short guy when I played in little league and Babe Ruth ball.