Interesting Test (concerning Barry Bonds and the Giants) - Page 4

twins15 · 03-24-2005, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

"If Barry played in Ruth's era, he'd be a rumor." - Andy Behrens

I actually agree. Since he wouldn't have been allowed to play in the MLB, he'd be a rumor in the same sense guys like Oscar Robertson or Josh Gibson are.

EDIT: Not sure how this helps prove your point, though.

DamnYankees · 03-24-2005, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twins15

I actually agree. Since he wouldn't have been allowed to play in the MLB, he'd be a rumor in the same sense guys like Oscar Robertson or Josh Gibson are.

I assume that's what the quote meant. I don't think the quote has anything to do with the relative skills of Ruth or Bonds, just on race relations.

Malleus Dei · 03-24-2005, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aadik

Again, I'm curious what quoting good ol' idiots is doing for your arguement.

My argument has already been correctly made, and remains valid. You remain wrong. I'm just pointing out what some others have written. My, you really do seem to enjoy insulting everyone who disagrees with you. Isn't that what you used to accuse me of? LOL.

Malleus Dei · 03-24-2005, 01:33 AM

Barry Bonds' percentage of hits that were home runs, by season (data from "Edmund Dantes" over on the redsoxnation board)

1986 (Age 22): 17.4
1987 (Age 23): 17.4
1988 (Age 24): 15.8
1989 (Age 25): 13.2
1990 (Age 26): 21.2
1991 (Age 27): 16.8
1992 (Age 28): 23.1
1993 (Age 29): 25.4
1994 (Age 30): 30.3
1995 (Age 31): 22.1
1996 (Age 32): 26.4
1997 (Age 33): 25.8
1998 (Age 34): 22.2
1999 (Age 35): 36.6
2000 (Age 36): 33.3
2001 (Age 37): 46.8
2002 (Age 38): 30.9
2003 (Age 39): 33.8
2004 (Age 40): 33.3

Plot this on a chart and look at what mysteriously happens in 1999. Interesting point 1: Bonds hired Greg Anderson as his "personal weight trainer" in 1998. Interesting point 2: Bonds' ex-girlfriend, Kimberly Bell, testified before a grand jury that Bonds told her in 2000 that he was using steroids.

Based on that, Bonds' "records" and all of his performances from 1999 on mean nothing and should be expunged, because that wasn't him performing; it was the chemicals.

Malleus Dei · 03-24-2005, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DamnYankees

I assume that's what the quote meant. I don't think the quote has anything to do with the relative skills of Ruth or Bonds, just on race relations.

Take it any way you like.

Ruth, who drank too much, was truly great in spite of chemicals, while Bonds has only been perceived as great because of them.

UngratefulDead · 03-24-2005, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Ruth, who drank too much, was truly great in spite of chemicals, while Bonds has only been perceived as great because of them.

So let that be a lesson to you kids!

twins15 · 03-24-2005, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

My, you really do seem to enjoy insulting everyone who disagrees with you.

Like telling everyone who disagrees with you that they're wrong and don't know what they're talking about?

UngratefulDead · 03-24-2005, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twins15

Like telling everyone who disagrees with you that they're wrong and don't know what they're talking about?

No. Nothing like that. Grudgemonger.

twins15 · 03-24-2005, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UngratefulDead

No. Nothing like that. Grudgemonger.

Good. Didn't think so.

jackson41 · 03-24-2005, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Ruth utterly dominated his era, like no one does today.

I would argue that Bonds dominated his era. Here are three numbers to support my claim: 232, 120, 506. All the talk is about Bonds homeruns, but that is not what makes him great. 232 is the number of times Barry walked last year. Roids didn't help him not swing at bad pitches. 120 is the number of IBB to Bonds last year. No player has ever been feared more than Bonds. If you don't think Bonds donminates baseball, just check how many times the other great players in the league were IBB last year. And the most imppressive number in Bonds line: 506. In case you havn't figured it out yeat, thats the nuber of career SB for Bonds. Exactly on person has ever hit 500 HR and had 500 SB. In fact only on player with 500 SB has ever hit 400 HR. And the 500 SB 300 HR club only has one member as well. Bonds is in uncharted waters.

Becuase Bonds is one of the two greatest players of all time, everybody assumes he had to cheat. And when he gets sick of being asked if he's a cheater everyday, that makes him a jerk. We may never know the truth, but untill we do, we have no reason, other than some great stats, to call him a cheater.

Malleus Dei · 03-24-2005, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackson41

we have no reason, other than some great stats, to call him a cheater.

No reason? Grand jury testimony, statements made out of court (including some that were recorded), other evidence, and potential perjury charges = no reason? LOL.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...GGFA0UDU65.DTL

http://www.newsday.com/sports/baseba...orts-headlines

If I were commissioner, Bond's would already be expunged history, followed shortly thereafter by a number of other players.

Malleus Dei · 03-24-2005, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by twins15

Like telling everyone who disagrees with you that they're wrong and don't know what they're talking about?

Totally legal under the board rules (you should read them sometime) and appropriate in cases where the other side is wrong and doesn't know what they're talking about.

jaxmagicman · 03-24-2005, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Reasons: grand jury testimony, statements made out of court (including some that were recorded), and other evidence.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg...GGFA0UDU65.DTL

If I were commissioner, Bond's would be expunged history, followed shrotly by a number of others.

Sorry, I must not read as good as you. Please show me where in that article it says that Bonds took steroids in 1999. Also please point out where it says he took them period?

Malleus Dei · 03-24-2005, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaxmagicman

Sorry, I must not read as good as you. Please show me where in that article it says that Bonds took steroids in 1999. Also please point out where it says he took them period?

From the second link:

"The San Francisco Chronicle reported Sunday that the BALCO prosecutors subpoenaed Bonds' former girlfriend, Kimberly Bell, 35, last week and questioned her in front of a grand jury about her relationship with Bonds.

Bell reportedly testified that Bonds had notified her in 2000 that he had begun using steroids. Though she never saw him use the performance-enhancing drugs, she saw changes in Bonds -- such as baldness, acne and a shorter temper -- consistent with steroid use."

Malleus Dei · 03-24-2005, 10:35 AM

It's all just a matter of time before this is all made very clear, even to the most blind of Bonds defenders. Just sit back and watch.

Crapshoot · 03-24-2005, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Totally legal under the board rules (you should read them sometime) and appropriate in cases where the other side is wrong and doesn't know what they're talking about.

And its absolutely legal to call you an old, leather bound coot whose time has passed, but who refused to let go. After all , from what we've seen, its true.

Crapshoot · 03-24-2005, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

My argument has already been correctly made, and remains valid. You remain wrong. I'm just pointing out what some others have written. My, you really do seem to enjoy insulting everyone who disagrees with you. Isn't that what you used to accuse me of? LOL.

Your arguement has repeatedly failed to address the talent gap and you know, the lack of African American or Hispanic players. Again, your preferences set aside, you would think that that makes a bit of a difference, eh ?

jaxmagicman · 03-24-2005, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

From the second link:

"The San Francisco Chronicle reported Sunday that the BALCO prosecutors subpoenaed Bonds' former girlfriend, Kimberly Bell, 35, last week and questioned her in front of a grand jury about her relationship with Bonds.

Bell reportedly testified that Bonds had notified her in 2000 that he had begun using steroids. Though she never saw him use the performance-enhancing drugs, she saw changes in Bonds -- such as baldness, acne and a shorter temper -- consistent with steroid use."

Damn, thats it I am convinced. Not only does it not say anything about 1999, still, but we are taking the words of a scorned woman.

"Hell holds no fury like a woman scorn"
I win, I used a quote to prove my case.

cknox0723 · 03-24-2005, 10:43 AM

since dargone hasn't checked in in this thread yet...

guuuuuhhhh!

Dagrims · 03-24-2005, 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackson41

Ruth's records can't be compared to baseball today. Baseball is a different game today. Ruth never faced a middle reliever who came into the game in the 7th and threw 95 mph. He never had to hit a slider. He never had to hit a black/Latino/Asian pitcher. The bats today are better, the balls today are better, and the talent today is better.

If we want to immortalize Ruth in the record books, than we need to have a different record book for each era. Baseball is a change game and I think...and I'm sure I'll get run off for saying this, but...If Ruth played today he'd never get out of AA ball. It's not fair to compare him to today's players.

This is one of the five most ludicrous posts I've ever read, aside from the "different game today" sentence and the mention of Ruth never having to hit against a minority pitcher. You honestly believe that all batters in the major leagues today are better than Ruth would be, because they face middle relievers, sliders, and have better equipment. You'd argue that Mike Cameron is better than Ruth would be. Somehow, a guy like Phil Nevin has been able to learn to hit different pitches and adapt to middle relievers, but Ruth could not. I wonder if Phil Nevin could hit a spitball. I wonder if Phil Nevin's productivity would decrease if he had to travel by bus instead of chartered aircraft. I wonder if Phil Nevin would see baseballs as clearly that weren't switched out for brand new ones every other pitch. I wonder if Phil Nevin could adapt to inside fastballs that didn't result in umpire warnings/ejections. I wonder how he'd do without the benefits of modern strength training and dietary supplements. Wow, if Phil Nevin played in the 20s he'd never get out of D ball.