It's the Last Friday In March!!!

[Dagrims]

Originally posted by dangarion
I heard from my sisters brothers mothers friends boyfriends cousin that OOTP 6 is going to be skipped and that OOTP Xtreme will be the new version in 2005 but you didn't hear it from me.

...and Ferris passed out at 31 Flavors last night.

[Bobbuttons]

Originally posted by Dagrims
...and Ferris passed out at 31 Flavors last night.

You know Ferris?

[thomamon]

Steve isn't my favorite person either, he's by far not the best customer service person I've ever seen. But in his defense stuff is posted in other places so it does probaby get frustrating.But when your in his place, your supposed to be patient and know the customer is always right.

TM

Originally posted by statfreak
It's in one of the OOTP6 update threads Markus posted.

Steve doesn't seem to have much tolerance or patience for being helpful and almost always defers to his 'sig' or another thread... even if it would be quicker and more helpful to just post a 5 word reply. Not a slam on Steve, but sometimes I think he should be more customer-oriented and less of a crotchety grumpus...

[jdbolick]

I'm not surprised that there are some reasonable people largely unconcerned by the game's lateness due to their prior satisfaction and faith in a company with a good track record; nor am I'm not surprised by the legions of sheep who faithfully defend their idols, as I think we've all seen that behavior in high school. But while these behaviors are expected, that doesn't mean you should pretend that such support is well reasoned or justified. I specifically praised OOTP's previous products because they have made quality games, but that does not earn them a free pass from future criticism. Anyone who pretends that a baseball game not out by now doesn't deserve some criticism is simply not thinking logically. I made the point that this is not some random-themed game, it's a sports game, and therefore tied to the actual sport it represents. There is a reason Madden isn't released in February, or even mid-September. While I have not participated in the making of a game myself, I know several who have and I'm familiar with the process. Certainly it's better to release a well-tested, bug-free product, but OOTP developments should have anticipated these issues and dealt with them long ago. Bugs inevitably surface in all games, not just OOTP6, but do you see other sports games coming out after their seasons start? Generally speaking, no you don't, because other companies are apparently more professional and allocate more time to coding and testing. I realize that OOTP is a small company with limited resources, but they should either devote the time necessary to release their games on time or else stop making sports games. The latter is not something I want, given my appreciation for previous titles, but it's a reality of the business world. Either you act like a business or you go out of it.

It is not impatience to expect a sports game's release prior to the start of the actual season. By all means, tell me what other companies have released sports games after the start of the seasons. I'm sure there have been some, but it's always been considered a serious breach of trust. Sucking up to the game's developers doesn't change that fact, so when someone chooses to bash me, at least make practical arguments instead of petty, immature dismissals. I don't think OOTP can be defended for its delays. We can understand and sympathize, because most of us have struggled to meet deadlines at some point in our work lives, but that doesn't mean that they or we didn't deserve criticism for those failings. I write for a living, and if I didn't consistently meet my deadlines, I'd not only be blasted to hell and back, I'd be fired. It's a testament to OOTP that their games have been good enough to inspire legions of loyal sheep, but those are the realities of the real world. Deadlines exist, expectations exist, errors are made. Neither OOTP or its supporters should be attacking those who criticize the product for being late. If it's buggy, OOTP deserves criticism for making such a buggy product to begin with, and for not allocating enough time to sort through those problems. As I believe someone else said, OOTP has never been this late before. Hopefully it never will be again, but if it is, expect people to be critical. If so, the developers and even the fans of the series need to deal with that criticism instead of casually dismissing it. For the sheep out there, remember that the more people you drive away from these games, the less likely they can remain profitable. Where would you be then?


Unspecified release dates are just not how businesses are run. If this were just a hobby, I wouldn't be criticizing, but anytime you want my money and expect to make a profit, I have a reasonable expectation of certain standards. In regards to sports games, release before the start of the season is one of those reasonable expectations. If you cannot meet that standard, and sometimes companies simply can't, then you did something wrong and should be apologetic rather than indifferent or dismissive. Only OOTP's small market saves it from more vicious criticism. I guarantee that if EA indicated that their game might not be released until April 15th, they would be savaged by every major and minor columnist. It isn't how things are supposed to be done, and as long as OOTP is attempting to operate as a business and make profit off of their games, they should conform to those industry standards. Free source and shareware products get a lot more slack, but if you want that same treatment, don't ask for my money.


(Disclaimer: Undoubtedly part of my irritation comes from having worked with people seemingly like the OOTP staff (writers in my case): occasionally brilliant and capable of great things, but totally uninterested in professional presentation or responsibilities. Needless to say, we parted ways, and they have failed to capitalize on their talents as they could have. Perhaps the most worrisome thing is not that the game is late, but that the developers appear totally unconcerned by its lateness or the dissatisfaction of potential customers. That attitude is inherently dangerous and counter-productive.)


mh2365:
I am not a dickweed, and I am not using an alias. My post name is my real off-line name, genius. I would have thought that obvious, but clearly I assumed too much. I have owned previous OOTP games but only felt compelled to post now because I am frustrated by the this game's late delivery. I generally avoid message boards such as this precisely because they are inhabited by people such as yourself, and therefore find participation a waste of my otherwise valuable time. If you disagree, by all means, explain what kind of meaningful interaction I could have with someone such as yourself. I'm all ears. In the meantime, find the productivity and self-respect necessary to pry your lips off of a corporate @$$, and define your self-worth in your own achievements rather than some misguided fandom.

[statfreak]

but your premise is flawed... the game is not late. It was stated that due to ITP, OOTP would be coming out later than normal and should be ready around Opening Day. If you made your post in May, then I would be inclined to agree with you, but posting before the "unofficial" release date...

I'll refrain from any personal attacks, but only because a flame war will serve no purpose.

[jdbolick]

No, I already explained why your reasoning is wrong. If EA announced that Madden 2005 would not be released until next February, it would still be late even if it met that release date. Sports games have an unstated obligation to be released in a timely manner before the start of the sports season they represent. Being released a few weeks into the season is better than a few months, but the difference is only one of degree. If OOTP expects to be taken seriously as a production company and therefore to make money off of its products, it needs to try everything possible to meet those industry standards and to be thoroughly apologetic when they cannot.

[statfreak]

That is all your opinion... if EA said Madden would be relased late September, 95% of their audience wouldn't care and would wait.

Besides, their PC games almost always come out a month or two after their console releases... I've never seen a big backlash because of this.

I certainly respect your opinion, but side with the majority here... the game is not late, it simply is not.

There's no need for Markus or OOTP in general to apologize for seemingly adhering to the release date (or date range) they have set for themselves.

[Ben E Lou]

Originally posted by jdbolick
It is not impatience to expect a sports game's release prior to the start of the actual season. By all means, tell me what other companies have released sports games after the start of the seasons..

Sure thing, bud-row. Several versions of BM came out after the season started. Several (all?) versions of FOF came out after the season started. TPF came out after the season started. TDCB came out after the season started. TCY came out in the early summer, if I recall correctly. Hmmmm....that's at least one game in every significant sport in the career text sim genre.

Further, I couldn't disagree more with the "I-want-it-in-season" argument. I couldn't possibly care less if a game is released in-season or out of season. Looking back at some of my Dynasty Reports over the years, I see the very popular FOF2 Bear Bryant Challenge, which ran in February-March of 2000. I see a BM career in December of 2001. There's the TCY Kentucky Dynasty that took place in the spring of 2002. I could go on, but you get the point.

I want a good football game any time of year.
I want a good baseball game any time of year.

I might play either one, at any time, regardless of what the mindless, short-attention-span, only-play-during-the-season joystick jockeys are playing.

"It will be released when it is ready" (first uttered by Jim Gindin I believe, to shrieks and catcalls from many--yours truly included) has turned out to be one of the best things to happen to the career text sim genre, and I'm glad that more and more companies are moving toward doing it that way.

--Ben

[dangarion]

Hey jbbolick name all the other text based baseball sims that have already had new versions come out this month.

I know Total Pro Baseball (Puresim) isn't out, heck there is no report of a release date for it either.

[Cardinal Rule]

jdbolick - you are certainly entitled to feel as you do. I do resent being referred to as a 'sheep' because I don't happen to feel OOTP has violated any such unwritten standard as you claim.

I personally think the reason your argument is thin at best is that EA has not only a legion of customers to answer to, but more importantly a group of investors and shareholders that care far more about the return on their investment. Public perception, influenced by writers and reviewers, will affect sales, causing the stock to tail, causing investors to jump ship, leading to pulled support, product lines, cost cuts, etc. You're right in that missing a date by a company like EA would be very damaging.

However OOTP is not a public company. Investors are not able to buy and sell at will. Markus' interest in this effort will not be influenced dramatically by a negative review. This is a niche product, and I highly doubt you'll ever see a TV ad for OOTP during the World Series or endorsements by MLB personnel. None of those things are important to what OOTP is trying to accomplish.

Further, what is your response if indeed OOTP6 is released on or before opening day? It seems to me that you're taking a difficult position - if OOTP6 is released before opening day than your argument, if not wholly negated, is certainly diminished significantly. It would be different if opening day had come and gone with no release.

[jdbolick]

statfreak:
No, it isn't my opinion, it's my experience. If EA waited to release Madden in September, most people would still buy it, but the criticism would be positively overwhelming. Fans and columnists alike would be coming out of the woodwork to blast EA for their delay, and as I said, the only thing saving OOTP on that count is its small market. And their sports games on PC do not come out months after console release. MVP Baseball (a good game) is out on both PC and PS2. Their non-sports games sometimes do come out later on PC because they're not separate development entities, they're porting one product to another system. Porting means taking a finished product designed for something and making the changes necessary for it to be usable on something else. EA doesn't port sports games specifically because there is an industry expectation to have those games released prior to the start of the season they represent, and failure to do is judged to be unacceptable. As for apologies, no one is forcing the developers to do anything, but their attitude negatively affects their chances of reaching increased levels of success. Either you satisfy customers or you don't make it, it's that simple. No tiny mob of loyal attack dogs will change that simple fact.


SkyDog:
Fair examples, although you conspicuously fail to note that BM used to be late in its releases. Now that they're attempting to become a legitimate corner of the market, they're getting things out when the industry expects them to. FOF meets the criteria, though, but their release date has certainly affected my past unwillingness to buy the game and I assume has hurt their overall sales.

As for your other statement, that's a terrible attempt at logic. I regularly play Madden 2004 now even though it's obviously not football season, but that has no bearing on when I expect the game to be released. If there was no connection between the release date for sports games and the start of the season they represent, there wouldn't be such an overwhelming correlation between the two. Clearly a late game is better than no game, and therefore a great game at any time of the year is a welcome addition, but sports games are expected to be out by the time their seasons start. And as I have explained to you at length, "it will be released when it's ready" only means the company in question failed to start early enough to meet the expected deadline.


dangarion:
I've never played TPB, but I know that BM 2004 is out and has been for a while now. I suspect that any delay of TPB is related to the .400-Sullivan merger.

Cardinal Rule:
Before you feel any further resentment, refer to my statement again. I said: "I'm not surprised that there are some reasonable people largely unconcerned by the game's lateness due to their prior satisfaction and faith in a company with a good track record; nor am I'm not surprised by the legions of sheep who faithfully defend their idols." Notice that I indentified two separate groups of people supporting the game. If you are one of those who isn't attacking people like me who are upset about the lateness, then don't count yourself among the sheep, consider yourself one of the former. If you're an unthinking suck-up who blasts all critics because they define themselves by their devotion to some corporate product, then you would be.

OOTP being a public or private company is irrelevant except in defining the degree of their responsibility. The operative word there is "company." As long as they seek to be a legitimate business and make a profit, they have a responsibility to meet industry standards. I already explained that being free source or shareware would excuse them entirely from those unwritten rules, but then they wouldn't be a "company." I also explained that the size of the company in question only affects the amount of response. OOTP being later than ever in delivery of its product won't raise much ire for the same reason that their quality products don't get much praise, because most people don't even know that OOTP exists.

As for when OOTP is released, the earlier they can, the less egregious their error will be. In my own experience as a reviewer and customer, a sports game unreleased a week before the season starts is already pushing the limits. Despite that, if the website or someone on this message board said that it would only be a few more days, I suspect that I would still be forgiving. Instead what we have is a great deal of uncertainty and no end in sight. "It will be ready when it's ready" is not an acceptable business model, it's the kind of thing you say to a hobby. That's the kind of attitude I take towards my own personal writing, not the things I do professionally. Unfortunately the unknown release date is just one example of arguably unprofessional behavior, also evidenced by the OOTP5 front page mentioned in a lower thread that they apparently changed only within the last day or so.

[Henry]

Facts

• 1. The game is not late. It was advertised for "around" opening day and that is still 9 days off.
  
  2. It was also stated that the release of ITP delayed OOTP to some time after the release date that would have been usually expected.
  
  3. Steve has stated multiple times that the game wouldn't be released until ready, and it has also been stated that no release date would be set - so we could attempt to avoid missing a date and/or releasing a rushed game which would raise issues of its own.

This game was NEVER promised before opening day - plain and simple. It was explained many times that it would be later than past releases - and no date has been set to allow the beta team to cover as much territory as possible.

You may feel the game should be out before opening day - and that is your right, but don't expect those of us that have spent years with OOTP and trust Markus' intentions to jump on your bandwagon.

jdbolick,

It seems to me your upset and dissatified. I'm sorry you feel that way. I also am sure if you wish a refund if you've preordered, we would do everything we can to insure you received it. I hope you don't ask, but rest assured I will take the issue in hand if you request it.

To everyone,

Our release of OOTP5 at the end of February last year did not include a complete rewrite of the game engine - nor did it follow the release of a new game (ITP). Rest assured we are doing everything in our power to get this game out as soon as possible and in the best shape possible.

That has always been our intention and remains so.

Henry

[jdbolick]

#1) As I already explained, if EA told everyone Madden 2005 would be released February 1st and they met that deadline, it would still be late. Sports games are expected to be released by the start of the season they represent. If they don't, they're late. Cardinal Rule was right in saying that small games can better get away with such failures because their consumer base tends to be more understanding, but if you guys intend to be a legitimate product, you better start conforming to industry standards or apologizing when you can't.

#2) That's your fault, not the customer's. I assume you've heard the expression "don't bite off more than you can chew." If you can't fulfill existing responsibilities, don't take on new ones.

#3) Concern for the quality of the game is admirable, but reluctance to release a buggy game is not an excuse. That only means you failed to have the code in adequate shape quickly enough.


I am not expecting anyone to jump on my bandwagon, nor am I attempting to persuade anyone that they should start complaining. If they aren't bothered, more power to them. I don't begrudge their patience, I only mind when small-minded sheep start badgering those of us who aren't so forgiving. Whether you like or not, and whether or not the developers choose to acknowledge it, there are industry standards. You can either choose to meet them, or you can choose not to. If you choose not to, your business will suffer. If you don't care that your business is suffering, so be it, but you can't ignore those conventions and yet expect potential customers to be silent.


And yes, if I can get me a prompt refund I'll be glad to take it. I will still be writing a negative review of your business practices, but at least then I can mention that you did something minor to address my issues.

[Henry]

Originally posted by jdbolick
#1) As I already explained, if EA told everyone Madden 2005 would be released February 1st and they met that deadline, it would still be late. Sports games are expected to be released by the start of the season they represent. If they don't, they're late. Cardinal Rule was right in saying that small games can better get away with such failures because their consumer base tends to be more understanding, but if you guys intend to be a legitimate product, you better start conforming to industry standards or apologizing when you can't.

#2) That's your fault, not the customer's. I assume you've heard the expression "don't bite off more than you can chew." If you can't fulfill existing responsibilities, don't take on new ones.

#3) Concern for the quality of the game is admirable, but reluctance to release a buggy game is not an excuse. That only means you failed to have the code in adequate shape quickly enough.


I am not expecting anyone to jump on my bandwagon, nor am I attempting to persuade anyone that they should start complaining. If they aren't bothered, more power to them. I don't begrudge their patience, I only mind when small-minded sheep start badgering those of us who aren't so forgiving. Whether you like or not, and whether or not the developers choose to acknowledge it, there are industry standards. You can either choose to meet them, or you can choose not to. If you choose not to, your business will suffer. If you don't care that your business is suffering, so be it, but you can't ignore those conventions and yet expect potential customers to be silent.


And yes, if I can get me a prompt refund I'll be glad to take it. I will still be writing a negative review of your business practices, but at least then I can mention that you did something minor to address my issues.

Understood, and as I said, I'm sorry your taking this position at this time.

Please note, I am not an OOTP employee, only the board community manager, so my opinions as stated are mine alone and not necessarily that of management.

I will, however, initiate whatever I can to address your refund. If you would also please provide me the publication for which you intend to submit your review, that would be greatly appreciated (you can provide that to me thru Private Message).

Henry

[Night2000]

Originally posted by jdbolick
No, I already explained why your reasoning is wrong. If EA announced that Madden 2005 would not be released until next February, it would still be late even if it met that release date. Sports games have an unstated obligation to be released in a timely manner before the start of the sports season they represent. Being released a few weeks into the season is better than a few months, but the difference is only one of degree. If OOTP expects to be taken seriously as a production company and therefore to make money off of its products, it needs to try everything possible to meet those industry standards and to be thoroughly apologetic when they cannot.

I'm far from a Fanboy, and not part of the flock of sheep you refer too. However Markus deserves some slack. The name of this game is OOTP 6 not OOTP 2004. Just because Markus made a habit of releasing previous versions around March. Doesn't mean it's set in stone. In previous years he's only worked on OOTP and nothing else. This year he came out with ITP, and I knew as I'm sure others did. That Markus getting OOTP6 done in March would be a tall order. Well he said it would be later and there is nothing wrong with that. Better to have an OOTP6 that is polished and have less bugs, than a rushed buggy version. To use EA as a shining example of what OOTP should try to emulate, is assinine. EA could care less what their customers think, or fixing bugs. They only care about getting their sports games out on time every year. So the mindless drones can rush to the store and buy them year after year. You are obviously conditioned to do this. No wonder you are whining that OOTP isn't out yet. At least give them till opening day before you start crying. Even if it isn't out by opening day, the world isn't going to end. Besides OOTP is really a fictional career baseball game. So I fail to see the relevance of why it should be out before the real season starts. It's not like it comes released with the real rosters.

[Jack Bauer]

For what it's worth, you THINK or TRY TO SOUND LIKE a friggin expert and that we should follow all your "ramblings". All this rough and tough, lay down the law "follow my ideas or screw you"(no you have not said these things but certainly implied them) just isn't what this game or board is about.

Also, if there was only one way to run a successful business then who knows how many currently successful companies would be out of business. Oh yeah, how many games have you written?...........ya know you have your right to voice your opinion but doesn't make it "gospel". Also the big know it all-guy attitude.....pathetic. You don't so don't ACT or answer like you do.

[gmo]

So should OOTP be like a mindless sheep and follow the business practices of EA and put out a game 4 weeks prior to opening day, period? I do feel that is about the optimum time to release a sports game, and it would be best for OOTP to be out then. Unlike many others here, my interest in sports games wanes quite a bit out of season. From mid-Nov to mid-Feb or so, I barely touch OOTP. But what is so absolutely wrong about the game not being out yet?

Now I may be drinking the Kool-Aid, being a sheep, whatever, but I think following a different, non-optimal business model is okay. OOTP can be criticized for not doing the common and probably more expected thing of releasing at a certain calendar point. Though I am willing to give more slack because I am a fan, it is fair to hold that against OOTP. If people, either newbies or veterans, are turned off enough by an uncertain release date to not want to be a part of the game, that's fine too. However, my feeling is the game will survive and continue to slowly grow as long is the quality remains high. I think there will be a gradually increasing net number of people who think the game is worth buying even with the business warts, and as long as that happens I expect OOTP to remain in business.

[wireman]

Well, at least all this arguing helps pass the time until the game comes out

[gmo]

Hey, some people beat me to my points.

Originally posted by wireman
Well, at least all this arguing helps pass the time until the game comes out

Boy howdy ain't that the truth.

[Schmidty]

Originally posted by jdbolick
#1) As I already explained, if EA told everyone Madden 2005 would be released February 1st and they met that deadline, it would still be late. Sports games are expected to be released by the start of the season they represent. If they don't, they're late. Cardinal Rule was right in saying that small games can better get away with such failures because their consumer base tends to be more understanding, but if you guys intend to be a legitimate product, you better start conforming to industry standards or apologizing when you can't.

#2) That's your fault, not the customer's. I assume you've heard the expression "don't bite off more than you can chew." If you can't fulfill existing responsibilities, don't take on new ones.

#3) Concern for the quality of the game is admirable, but reluctance to release a buggy game is not an excuse. That only means you failed to have the code in adequate shape quickly enough.


I am not expecting anyone to jump on my bandwagon, nor am I attempting to persuade anyone that they should start complaining. If they aren't bothered, more power to them. I don't begrudge their patience, I only mind when small-minded sheep start badgering those of us who aren't so forgiving. Whether you like or not, and whether or not the developers choose to acknowledge it, there are industry standards. You can either choose to meet them, or you can choose not to. If you choose not to, your business will suffer. If you don't care that your business is suffering, so be it, but you can't ignore those conventions and yet expect potential customers to be silent.


And yes, if I can get me a prompt refund I'll be glad to take it. I will still be writing a negative review of your business practices, but at least then I can mention that you did something minor to address my issues.

Did someone hurt you as a child. It's time to let go of the pain. Cry if you have to....I'll even volunteer my shoulder.

It's ok. Everything's going to be ok now.