Do We Need Talent Change Randomness?

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Rain King

No. He literally said the opposite of this.

LOL. How do you see "not always" as"most"?

[Rain King]

The goal for the Historical League Creation Wizard in OOTP 25 was to create multiple starting point options for the type of historical simulations that are most likely to be played with some thought given to making things easier to get started for newer players and/or anyone not generally familiar with the various options/settings available to them.

Anyone who has their own favorite way of playing can certainly jump into the Advanced options at any point of the Setup process if they want to make further adjustments.

[David Watts]

I think the strangest of the OOTP25 defaults involving the historical wizard is how when the game is set to use 1 year recalc, it defaults to double weight the current year as well. Does anyone know if the game is actually doubling the single year when this is on?

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Rain King

The goal for the Historical League Creation Wizard in OOTP 25 was to create multiple starting point options for the type of historical simulations that are most likely to be played with some thought given to making things easier to get started for newer players and/or anyone not generally familiar with the various options/settings available to them.

Anyone who has their own favorite way of playing can certainly jump into the Advanced options at any point of the Setup process if they want to make further adjustments.

If the goal is to help newer players, why are the adjust/weaken defaults not set to numbers that will provide the best results for each recalc be it 1 year, 3 year or 5? How many new users even understand what these settings do? Plus, this year out of nowhere, we get a post saying the way these settings work changed somewhere around OOTP23, and they now need to be set a completely different way. For 5 year recalc use 1000/500 or 1000/250 for hitters is now recommended. That's a huge difference from the 200/100(or us 200/50) that the game defaults to.

[Scoman]

Originally Posted by David Watts

If the goal is to help newer players, why are the adjust/weaken defaults not set to numbers that will provide the best results for each recalc be it 1 year, 3 year or 5? How many new users even understand what these settings do? Plus, this year out of nowhere, we get a post saying the way these settings work changed somewhere around OOTP23, and they now need to be set a completely different way. For 5 year recalc use 1000/500 or 1000/250 for hitters is now recommended. That's a huge difference from the 200/100(or us 200/50) that the game defaults to.

I wish they would finally comment on this and fix it in the default settings if it needs fixing.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Scoman

I wish they would finally comment on this and fix it in the default settings if it needs fixing.

Exactly. The thread in which the change was discussed wasn't even an official thread. The change was just mentioned matter of fact and then never mentioned again.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by David Watts

If the goal is to help newer players, why are the adjust/weaken defaults not set to numbers that will provide the best results for each recalc be it 1 year, 3 year or 5? How many new users even understand what these settings do? Plus, this year out of nowhere, we get a post saying the way these settings work changed somewhere around OOTP23, and they now need to be set a completely different way. For 5 year recalc use 1000/500 or 1000/250 for hitters is now recommended. That's a huge difference from the 200/100(or us 200/50) that the game defaults to.

I'm not sure. It may not be easy/possible to tie those things together. The 1/3/5 option is already a subsetting. It is one thing to set defaults for the main 4 "modes", it may be another to set them based on further subsettings.

Also, while I think you are referring to some recommendations that Garlon has made those are for one general way of playing. I don't think the Adjust/Weaken numbers are easy to "recommend" in that it depends a lot on what people are looking for and any combo can have different results based on the specific season that is being recalculated. There is, technically, probably a different "ideal" Adjust/Weaken combo for every mode and season combination...or maybe even more accurately there is no ideal combo...it is more like the combo that creates somewhere close to the ideal rating for the highest percentage of players.

Sample size is always going to be a detrimental factor to creating historical ratings, there isn't really any way of avoiding that.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by kq76

I can't help but wonder, what was that feature? Do you know? The only one that comes to my mind was Markus's version of the dev lab and that's why I was so happy the team brought it back, and far better than it was originally. The original may have had its flaws, sure, but you felt like you actually had some way to influence how your players developed. Yeah, you could kind of influence their development in some other ways too, but it was direct impact.

You will notice that SI is removing a bunch of half-assed features from Football Manager from the upcoming 25th edition. I’d argue they are doing it to at least improve the game temporarily even if they have plans to re-introduce those features when they work well and in concert with the rest of the game.

[Reed]

Originally Posted by David Watts

If the goal is to help newer players, why are the adjust/weaken defaults not set to numbers that will provide the best results for each recalc be it 1 year, 3 year or 5? How many new users even understand what these settings do? Plus, this year out of nowhere, we get a post saying the way these settings work changed somewhere around OOTP23, and they now need to be set a completely different way. For 5 year recalc use 1000/500 or 1000/250 for hitters is now recommended. That's a huge difference from the 200/100(or us 200/50) that the game defaults to.

Maybe make a very generalized type setting for adjust/weaken but realize every time you change a setting, then “best” setting changes. For example
For Random play some of the things that will impact what the “best” setting for adjust/weaken are
1. Number of rounds for annual draft. The more rounds the higher adjust/weaken setting needs to be.
2. RAH on/off will have a big impact.
3. Missed seasons on/off will impact.
4. Injury setting especially long term/CEIs and frequency.
5. Pitcher rotation
6. Even your setting for maximum debut year (especially 2023) will impact the “best” setting for adjust/weaken.
7. There are probably several more options I didn’t mention.
There are probably a hundred different combinations.

Again they might come up with a general setting (and they kind of did when they said for 3 year recalc just triple the setting). BUT I always say to set up your league and use what you think is reasonable for adjust/weaken. AND THEN TEST IT. If you don’t like the results then reset adjust/weaken and test again.

When I set up a league I always Test it out at least 20 years. If the results look promising I’ll test it out a total of 50 to 75 years. I frequently reset and test a league 4 or more times before I am satisfied enough to really start the league.

[Baby Ruth]

I really have no clue what the settings do in the baseball universe I'm playing. I feel about the settings in this game the same way I feel about a menu at a restaurant: too many choices make it difficult to make a decision, especially if I don't know what some of the things are.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by Baby Ruth

I really have no clue what the settings do in the baseball universe I'm playing. I feel about the settings in this game the same way I feel about a menu at a restaurant: too many choices make it difficult to make a decision, especially if I don't know what some of the things are.

I mean, most of them are pretty self explanatory and unless you are looking to make specific changes can be left at default.

If there are any you have a question about you can generally ask in the forums and quickly get an answer.

Sure, you can get into the weeds depending how anal you are about your universe (I think many of us that spend a lot of time here fit into that description), but that definitely is not necessary.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Reed

Maybe make a very generalized type setting for adjust/weaken but realize every time you change a setting, then “best” setting changes. For example
For Random play some of the things that will impact what the “best” setting for adjust/weaken are
1. Number of rounds for annual draft. The more rounds the higher adjust/weaken setting needs to be.
2. RAH on/off will have a big impact.
3. Missed seasons on/off will impact.
4. Injury setting especially long term/CEIs and frequency.
5. Pitcher rotation
6. Even your setting for maximum debut year (especially 2023) will impact the “best” setting for adjust/weaken.
7. There are probably several more options I didn’t mention.
There are probably a hundred different combinations.

Again they might come up with a general setting (and they kind of did when they said for 3 year recalc just triple the setting). BUT I always say to set up your league and use what you think is reasonable for adjust/weaken. AND THEN TEST IT. If you don’t like the results then reset adjust/weaken and test again.

When I set up a league I always Test it out at least 20 years. If the results look promising I’ll test it out a total of 50 to 75 years. I frequently reset and test a league 4 or more times before I am satisfied enough to really start the league.

I'm not going to run tests. If I run tests, why even play. Why not just tweak a setting and test again. Then do this again an test again. Cool thing would be if one runs enough tests, it might even be time to buy the next version of the game. Which of course, means more tests. Pretty soon six or seven years have went by and one soon comes to realize, I've never really even played the game....but hey I've sure run some tests.

How do you test a random debut league. The players in your test league will not be the same as he players in your actual league. So the talent will be different. I think we tend to way over complicate things

I just like to play the game. As long as there's not complete sillyness like Xander Boegart's fielding ratings crashing to red20 at age 31, or Jim St Vrain notching 700+ saves I'm usually happy.

The adjust weaken/settings in the wizard should default to whatever is best for the recalc you've chosen to use. Or it could default to the best(basic) setting for 1 year recalc, with instructions as to how to change them to best work with 3 and 5 year recalc.

[Baby Ruth]

Originally Posted by Rain King

I mean, most of them are pretty self explanatory and unless you are looking to make specific changes can be left at default.

If there are any you have a question about you can generally ask in the forums and quickly get an answer.

Sure, you can get into the weeds depending how anal you are about your universe (I think many of us that spend a lot of time here fit into that description), but that definitely is not necessary.

When I set up the league (I've only finished 2 seasons so far), I thought that I had finally gotten a bit of understanding about what was going on. However, all this talk about TCR and recalc and historical settings vs. fictional settings has clouded my brain on whether I'm going to see what I want to see. The biggest thing that causes me concern is something I believe is called League Total Modifiers, or something like that. If that's artificially causing player results to be different than what their in-game ratings are capable of then that's a big buzz killer. If I was playing an RPG and had a Strength of 20 I wouldn't want it to be treated like 15 because the total universe Strength can only be 25 and there are two other guys with Strength of 5 each.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Rain King

I'm not sure. It may not be easy/possible to tie those things together. The 1/3/5 option is already a subsetting. It is one thing to set defaults for the main 4 "modes", it may be another to set them based on further subsettings.

Also, while I think you are referring to some recommendations that Garlon has made those are for one general way of playing. I don't think the Adjust/Weaken numbers are easy to "recommend" in that it depends a lot on what people are looking for and any combo can have different results based on the specific season that is being recalculated. There is, technically, probably a different "ideal" Adjust/Weaken combo for every mode and season combination...or maybe even more accurately there is no ideal combo...it is more like the combo that creates somewhere close to the ideal rating for the highest percentage of players.

Sample size is always going to be a detrimental factor to creating historical ratings, there isn't really any way of avoiding that.

This is where I get confused. We are told to use 1000/500 or 1000/250 for 5 year recalc. The default settings are I believe 200/50. If 1000/500 works for 5 year recalc, then how does the game not see the default as way too low?

[Reed]

Originally Posted by David Watts

I'm not going to run tests. If I run tests, why even play. Why not just tweak a setting and test again. Then do this again an test again. Cool thing would be if one runs enough tests, it might even be time to buy the next version of the game. Which of course, means more tests. Pretty soon six or seven years have went by and one soon comes to realize, I've never really even played the game....but hey I've sure run some tests.

How do you test a random debut league. The players in your test league will not be the same as he players in your actual league. So the talent will be different. I think we tend to way over complicate things

I just like to play the game. As long as there's not complete sillyness like Xander Boegart's fielding ratings crashing to red20 at age 31, or Jim St Vrain notching 700+ saves I'm usually happy.

The adjust weaken/settings in the wizard should default to whatever is best for the recalc you've chosen to use. Or it could default to the best(basic) setting for 1 year recalc, with instructions as to how to change them to best work with 3 and 5 year recalc.

Well there are ways you can generally test but it is a little complicated and if you don’t want to test, then there is no point in my trying to explain how I do it. If someone is interested, they can PM me and maybe we can compare notes.

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by Reed

Well there are ways you can generally test but it is a little complicated and if you don’t want to test, then there is no point in my trying to explain how I do it. If someone is interested, they can PM me and maybe we can compare notes.

Not taking a shot at you at all. Hope it didn't come off that way. I tend to have fun with the game even when I end up closing down a league and firing up another. I will always be a serial league starter. Sometimes I find a fault with the game that I just can't get past.. Lots of times I realize I screwed something up that's just too big to ignore. The cool thing about the way I play and the way OOTP works is, it takes me no time at all to create a league and get it up and running. I think my thing with testing is, if I do so, I will kind of already have a feel for how my league is going to perform. I like the mystery of a new league. The random I had going right after the release of 25 was producing incredible numbers. Some of the best ever, but then the fielding issue was pointed out and sure enough, it was happening in my league. Hopefully that has been fixed. Even with testing I probably never would have noticed the fielding issue, as I wouldn't have been looking for it. Again, please know I wasn't criticizng you.

In some ways my actual leagues are tests in themselves. I usually learn something new with each one I play. It becomes just a matter of not making the same mistake twice. This may be another reason for me to start putting off buying the new release the minute it comes out. Often times, I'm the most comfortable with a version from October onwards, but then the new version comes out. I then have to start the whole process over again.

[Rain King]

Originally Posted by Baby Ruth

When I set up the league (I've only finished 2 seasons so far), I thought that I had finally gotten a bit of understanding about what was going on. However, all this talk about TCR and recalc and historical settings vs. fictional settings has clouded my brain on whether I'm going to see what I want to see. The biggest thing that causes me concern is something I believe is called League Total Modifiers, or something like that. If that's artificially causing player results to be different than what their in-game ratings are capable of then that's a big buzz killer. If I was playing an RPG and had a Strength of 20 I wouldn't want it to be treated like 15 because the total universe Strength can only be 25 and there are two other guys with Strength of 5 each.

TCR = Talent Change Randomness. This is a sub-setting of "Development". Development allows a player's current ratings to possibly go up (generally for younger players) or down (to simulate older players aging) during your season. TCR sets the general rate you want your players Potential (and sometimes Current) ratings to change throughout the season. This is a staple of fictional play. Whether you use it in Historical depends on what you are looking for. If you have a fictional aspect to your historical league (i.e. you want players to be able to develop differently than real life or potentially play beyond their real life retirement) you would want to use it.

Recalc = This relates to Historical only. It recalculates the historical player ratings each season to update them for that year's historical statistics (or range of statistics if you want to base it on multiple seasons). This thread is (somewhat) about whether it makes sense to use Development/TCR if you are using Recalc because Recalc "overrides" any changes that have been made to a player as you enter the off-season. If you want your players to be able to develop differently across their career than they did in real life you do not want to use Recalc.

League Totals are the target/average stats for your league/season.

League Totals Modifiers are how they game's internal engine can be adjusted to account for the player ratings across your league. You can use an option called "Autocalc" to automatically calculate those modifiers based on test simulations.

If I was playing an RPG and had a Strength of 20 I wouldn't want it to be treated like 15 because the total universe Strength can only be 25 and there are two other guys with Strength of 5 each.

I want to address this part of your post specifically.

To create Stats out of Ratings, there has to be a "target" statistical output. That is your League Totals.

From there, you have to decide what you care more about...having the league totals come out as close as possible to the target or to have the player ratings play more "purely" around that average target. If you care more about the latter you should set your League Totals and leave the Modifiers at 1.000.

In an ideal world you wouldn't need to make that choice and a lot of work has been done to where if you use Recalc and real life lineups you probably don't. You are going to get similar results whether you use Autocalc or not.

Depending on what you are wanting to do, though, these options are all available to you to allow you to move in whichever direction you choose.

[Brad K]

Originally Posted by Rain King

To create Stats out of Ratings, there has to be a "target" statistical output. That is your League Totals.

The description of the created stats in the editor is that the that stats are for a modern neutral environment. I asked several years ago if this meant the year for modern was raised by one for every version, for example, for 24 it would be 2022 and for 25 it would be 2023 and one of the devs answered it was not.

According to that response, again from several years ago, modern and neutral meant circa 2010. That doesn't mean it couldn't be a newer year now but in any case it certainly isn't the year selected in the save. Unless, of course, the dev is wrong and the description of the resulting stats is wrong. That is entirely possible other things have been shown to be wrong.

It is a real problem for the game when a user can post contradicting the manual, the in game descriptions, or the devs, and sometimes more than one, and be right.

[Rain King]

In OOTP25, they have added additional Current Rating and Talent Rating stat lines that "show the player's expected results given the league totals. League Modifiers, or other league balance issues may alter their actual output".

So, they have improved the users' ability to look at the editor and understand the expected results.

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by Rain King

In OOTP25, they have added additional Current Rating and Talent Rating stat lines that "show the player's expected results given the league totals. League Modifiers, or other league balance issues may alter their actual output".

So, they have improved the users' ability to look at the editor and understand the expected results.

This has been a great addition though the problem still remains that the "Neutral Modern Major League Environment" is based off of the 2010 season.
That likely needs to be updated as the game has changed a bit since then