AI Trade "LOGIC"

[Syd Thrift]

I'm 100% biased by watching a good deal of Lollujo, although he's not really the best streamer in terms of talent at FM (he's the best in humor per minute!) and certainly is not the most analytical or forward-thinking (like, half of his decisions are "ooh, this guy is 3.5 stars and this guy is only 3"). It's not that it's hard - it should be hard - it's that it's possible. You just flat out can't take Hashtag United and bring them into the Premiership. Sorry. It's not doable IRL. That's not a great example because Hashtag United is only available via mods but I wanted to bring that up because it bears no resemblance to real football at that point (which, again, that can still be fun to play; my experience with the mod and with watching Lollujo play were that it was kind of boring but YMMV).

To the extent that it may be harder to "game" FM, I really think that that's in the context of the relatively limited ways that teams trade players in football. Baseball has "challenge" trades and "you scratch my back, I scratch yours" deals. "Trades" in FM, as is the case in real-life football, are nearly always about buying or selling a player. Sometimes there's someone added as a throw-in but it's nearly always players for cash. And yes, when only one side has to worry about player talent, those kinds of transactions are easier to figure out. I think it's much easier to say "we will not be involved in selling, period" or "we will be cash neutral this offseason" than that baseball way which... kind of has to look at payroll but also kind of has to look at current and future talent levels when determining what is a "buy" and what is a "sell". Not saying OOTP does this right; I'm saying it's hard.

FM also has to do a ton more work on the strategy side than OOTP, of course, and it doesn't appear to have the easy-to-cheese exploits within the game itself that OOTP does. FM is also a much, much larger game who employs a lot more developers and I would expect it to be more solid overall. I am not saying at all that OOTP is "better" in AI, just that baseball requires different ways of looking at the game.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Syd Thrift

FM also has to do a ton more work on the strategy side than OOTP, of course, and it doesn't appear to have the easy-to-cheese exploits within the game itself that OOTP does. FM is also a much, much larger game who employs a lot more developers and I would expect it to be more solid overall. I am not saying at all that OOTP is "better" in AI, just that baseball requires different ways of looking at the game.

I can certainly respect what you are saying here, and I do get what you're saying...but the problem to me is, we have been repeating this same chant for an awfully long time now. Yes, the employ more developers, but when is OOTPd going to make a move to begin employing a larger team?

Where are all the profits going? I mean if they are going straight into the developers & publishers pockets, that's fine...that is their right and a business decision. The only reason I bring it up though, is because we (the users) have been told something very different over the years, and that PT & a large publisher would catapult OOTP to that level.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Lollujo is a top FM player. He was the showdown more times than any showdown member combined.

A lot of what he does is for show but he is elite of the elite in FM.

AVG FM players cannot go tier 1 to tier 10.

I mean I just finished 22 in OOTP23. BAltimore won the WS with no help from me. I finished 4 games behind Philly for wildcard as Miami. Finished as 7th best team in NL. Payroll was the minimum. I think I had 1 player on real contract everyone else was 700k rookie contract.

And I'm not even an elite OOTP player. But the avg OOTP player prob isn't doing it either. It's not that it's difficult it's that it was a huge time sink.

[wallewalls]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

This is something the developers should maybe aware of ....creating staff profiles that jive a bit more, and one's who don't have contradictory attributes. This is something I am glad you mentioned.

Heck, there are coaches with a "Personable" coaching style who have a negative relation with other "Personable" coaches (fill in X for all of the other styles, this is just an example). Stuff like this makes me play with coaching cohesion turned off.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by wallewalls

Heck, there are coaches with a "Personable" coaching style who have a negative relation with other "Personable" coaches (fill in X for all of the other styles, this is just an example). Stuff like this makes me play with coaching cohesion turned off.

That seems normal to me and the type of thing that would be problematic if it DIDN'T exist. Plenty of people don't get along with others of a similar personality.

[Cod]

Does OOTPD publically release any of the data provided by players? I'd like to understand what people tend to do most in this game...manage or do GM things.

This thread is heavily focused on the GM side of things, but is that what most people do in OOTP?

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Cod

Does OOTPD publically release any of the data provided by players? I'd like to understand what people tend to do most in this game...manage or do GM things.

This thread is heavily focused on the GM side of things, but is that what most people do in OOTP?

That's a good question, and I think the honest answer is people do a lot of different things. OOTP IMO lacks a certain amount of focus, and I believe consequently, falls short at times. I said it earlier in this thread I think when I mentioned it feels OOTPD wants to be "all things to all people".

Some people like managing, some like being GM, some both. Others prefer to do nothing and simply simulate, watching the world they have created unfold. Yet, others play PT. I think you get the point though....OOTP is a large model train set. It's up to you how you want to put it all together. It's not a jigsaw puzzle where only certain pieces will fit another certain piece. From this perspective, it's wonderful....and I think the customization in OOTP is unparalleled to any other management sim I have ever seen. I prefer the baseball operations and on field management aspects of OOTP. I am looking for a true to life management simulator. In order for that to work, the on field aspect of it has to be spot on, and in OOTP I believe it's really damn good. As mentioned a billion times in this thread, it's the front office/baseball operations/GM aspect of the sim that falls down IMO.

This doesn't mean you shouldn't play as a GM, as I believe most do...I just don't think it's up to where it should be at this point...but hey I am a tough critic. Is it the best baseball management experience on the market? yes...is it the best sports management simulation on the market? no

[Syd Thrift]

I suspect that the vast majority of players play GM only or primarily GM. I base this on there being three groups of people this applies to:

1. People who buy the game and play as a solo GM (which might be the smallest group of the three)

2. People who play primarily or even on a supplemental basis in online leagues.

3. People who play Perfect Team

PT isn't exactly "GM mode" but it is 100% a version you play where you don't load up stadia and make in-game decisions, so when it comes to stuff like "steals work on a GM basis but they're super easy to cheese on a playing-in-games basis" comes along, unfortunately those of us who play out games (note: I am one of them... my particular way of playing is on the insane side but it does involve playing out games from the 7th inning onwards), it generally counts as a "cool, we got this mostly fixed" issue more than a "crap, we quashed one bug just to create a brand new one" issue.

In this context, yeah, totally agree that I'd love to see more personality ratings as well as more ways that those ratings interact on and off the field. I like using low Adaptability to mean "guys who can't keep an even keel and get mad a lot" but this isn't really reflected in storylines and, I've got to say, I feel like player interactions are all too rare and mostly come from guys complaining about playing time and a few pretty rare storylines (I don't think I exactly want the "hey boss I just started up a new charity" storyline to happen 5 times a year, but I sure would like a lot more of them and for most/all of them to be based on the players' personality). That's still not nearly as robust a system as FM has but it'd be a start, probably.

[Cod]

Thanks for the inputs. I think we should start a new thread in the Suggestions forum (https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...lay.php?f=3866) to discuss these topics further. I feel like this thread is way off the rails at this point lol

[AlpineSK]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

That seems normal to me and the type of thing that would be problematic if it DIDN'T exist. Plenty of people don't get along with others of a similar personality.

But when that's your sole evaluation of the coach it leaves you scratching your head.

[Dr Naysay]

My issues with the coaches is that it appears to be artificially set up to offset certain ratings. The amount of highly rated pitching coaches that have a better relationship with batters and some outright awful relationship with a few pitchers and vice versa with hitting coaches seems like a deliberate attempt to offset their high ratings and it's a tad unrealistic for a ton of pitching coaches to be living it up with the hitters and be like "meh" when they see a pitcher.

I love this game, I truly do but there are definitely some things that feel artificial to me.

[Syd Thrift]

I don't think it's done on purpose; I think it's random.

[Dr Naysay]

I've done quite a few new starts and the same coaches tend to have the same relationships to the point where I have created my own house rules to avoid the obvious choices. Perhaps I am wrong but if Brian Conger has great ratings
as a pitching coach in your save and then great relationships with your pitchers then its not a fluke imo because it's the same through half a dozen saves I have started.

[progen]

Originally Posted by Dr Naysay

My issues with the coaches is that it appears to be artificially set up to offset certain ratings. The amount of highly rated pitching coaches that have a better relationship with batters and some outright awful relationship with a few pitchers and vice versa with hitting coaches seems like a deliberate attempt to offset their high ratings and it's a tad unrealistic for a ton of pitching coaches to be living it up with the hitters and be like "meh" when they see a pitcher.

I love this game, I truly do but there are definitely some things that feel artificial to me.

Here's a link on a study that was done with coaches. Interesting!!

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/....php?p=4650697

And here's the post on various studies that were completed.This is from 2020, so maybe different results in 23 for some areas? Definitely some good info on there!

https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=314350

[jimmysthebestcop]

Another thing about trade logic is it cant handle the Rule 5 draft. Probably because the AI cant handle the 40 man roster. They opt to protect younger players who have no current ability where the AI/Human wouldnt wast a spot on the active roster for them. Instead of protecting players who are either starter or bench mlb ready.

Then you can literally draft a handful to dozen rule 5 guys and trade them. The AI wont draft them but they will trade for them???? Then they might not even make it through spring training on the active roster. So they go back to the original team but the human can scam prospects.

Not to mention if you trade players on the date of the rule 5 the AI doesnt have a turn to add them to the 40 man. So you can trade them and redraft them and repeat. Its absolutely bonkers.

The AI also cant handle finances of contracts which impacts trading. You can scam AI players to take 3 year deals with 2 years being team options. Over pay them for those 2 years and give them a huge buy out. With low 1st year. If they are a star player every "win now" team will want them and give up prospects.

But even if its a normal 3 year contract with 2 year team options at fair market price its incredibly easy to trade those players especially if you pay for their 1st year.

AI has no shot at managing finances. While even a bad human player can. So you can just manage finances better sign the top free agents then trade them for prospects. Sure it costs you money that 1st year but its childs play to handle finances for the human.

I think a lot of OOTP users focus on the sim engine and the numbers. But honestly even with all the improvements there its barely noticeable since ootp 17 unless you are a huge numbers nerd. OOTPd pretty much has the sim/stats down its like a dog chasing its tale.

Do you really need 100% accuracy if it takes a bunch of dev work while 80% accuracy is probably just as realistic for a majority of players?

I just dont think a lot of ootp users focus on the problems AI, finances, trades, rule 5, 40 man rosters create. And its mostly because the finances model in game is a total fail.

Another examples is owners control budget. Well mostly all of the owners make the budget and some by 10's of millions. Why have that option is the majority of owners act a like? It might be needed for the human player but it actually effects the AI. The last thing the AI needs is LESS money.

Look I love OOTP. And it excels at on the field, managing the game and the stats. But honestly outside of that it is actually borderline unplayable. But maybe since PT and managing the games is important to most users that the user base doesnt understand just how completely broken OOTP is? And everything I point out has existed since OOTP 18. That is 5 years of development time.

PT has gotten better, the sim engine better, managing games, some quality of life but the AI GM/Owner cannot handle the financial model and it breaks almost everything from a GM management experience of the game.

I swear I remember playing Baseball Mogul 2 decades ago and it had a better financial model.

Ok another thing to point out. INT AMA FREE AGENTS. Literally just offer 5 million to the best player 1st and you get him 100%. Its been this way since the MLB had the 5 million max and OOTP changed to meet MLB rules.

You can immediately promote that player to Rookie ball he will be a top 10 prospect and on any trade setting you can get a top player who can actually start in the MLB. While that INT AMA is at least 5 years away if everything goes 100% correctly. Which it almost never does.

Sorry but OOTP isnt even in the same dimension as FM finances. Sure a good quality user can eventually take any team to #1 money maker in the FM world but its not through faulty AI or loopholes or weird gamey stuff. It is usually because the user has to sink a crazy amount of real world time into scouting, finding players, training them and selling them creating a player farm. And it is really only easy in England cause the league makes so much money. Try doing it in say denmark. IT will probably take you 3 decades of game time before you are a world class team.

So even if its so called "easy" for good users most normal users wont do it cause it takes crazy amount of time.

OOTP its easy, has loopholes and take no time.

[Karl Pagel Blues]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

Look I love OOTP. And it excels at on the field, managing the game and the stats. But honestly outside of that it is actually borderline unplayable. But maybe since PT and managing the games is important to most users that the user base doesnt understand just how completely broken OOTP is? And everything I point out has existed since OOTP 18. That is 5 years of development time.

100% agree with this. Which is why I will not buy another OOTP version until I hear that these issues have been addressed by the developers.

[ashantewarrier]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

Look I love OOTP. And it excels at on the field, managing the game and the stats. But honestly outside of that it is actually borderline unplayable.

“Borderline unplayable?” Oh…okay.

BTW- I’ve been playing the “unplayable” OOTP for almost 20 years now.


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[progen]

Originally Posted by Cod

Does OOTPD publically release any of the data provided by players? I'd like to understand what people tend to do most in this game...manage or do GM things.

This thread is heavily focused on the GM side of things, but is that what most people do in OOTP?

I always enjoy these conversations, as one who doesn't drill down as much as Syd and Sweed, there are still items that even I observe about the game. And I play as GM/Manager, as I get frustrated with how the AI handles lineups and the pitching rotation at times.

As one who sims 5-7 years, and then takes over an expansion team, I try and build for the future, and take my lumps for several seasons, sometimes longer, before fielding a competitive team. One way I look to build the team is through the RuleV draft. First season, I took 3 players, second season, 3 more, 3rd season 2. But in the second season, I noticed the AI took none. Not even the other expansion team. So I shrugged my shoulders, figured it was a "one off", and moved on. But same thing happen in the 3rd season. Made me feel that I was taking advantage of the AI.

I'm hoping in the 4th season, this changes, and I won't feel funny selecting a player. But if not, it's another thing I have to "police" myself on, and just skip my picks. That would be disappointing for sure.

My go to games are FM & OOTP, been playing OOTP since version 4, and like Syd mentioned, I do find I have to do little, to no policing with FM, and mostly something I don't even think about, unlike OOTP, where I may do just one trade a year(if any), keep my payroll low, even though the owner gives me a ridiculous amount to spend, and am not too aggressive in free agency. Besides being more of a challenge that way, I feel more like I'm not "cheating" the AI.

I think OOTP is at a crossroads, and while changes "under the hood" is all well and fine, there are additions to the game that I would like to see, that would be more visible to a player like me. More realism when a young, inexperienced manager-want-a-be, is looking for his first job. Give me an interviewing and apply for a position process. Makes the career mode more realistic this way. Also, more interaction with players, agents, owners. I guess there comes a point with any game, it's more challenging each year to create/think of new items that will keep the customer coming back. I feel, that after 23 versions, this is where OOTP is right now. I don't play PT, and only sim my games, so animation and PT don't interest me.

As an example, I occasionally play Pro Cycling Manager, and one thing that got me to buy the 2020 version was, you can now "create a rider", and see how your career plays out. The game is nowhere near OOTP or FM, but is fun to play, and a decent challenge. Mods help for sure. But that one item, got me to buy the game, which I hadn't done since 2014.

I'm yet to purchase 23, mainly because of what I read here, and feedback from friends that did purchase it. Still enjoying 22, and probably at some point I'll pick 23 up, but for the first time since OOTP4, I am in no rush.

[jimmysthebestcop]

I play FM cause it's a great game. I don't follow football at all.

I play OOTP just cause I need a baseball fix. If I didn't need the fix I would never grab OOTP.

And sorry yes it is in fact borderline unplayable as a GM. If I took a week to list all the problems, errors, inconsistencies I would probably run out of paper.

The finance model is completely inadequate. And it effects everything. Just browse 40 man rosters the AI has 35+ age 1 star or 1.5 stars players on 40 man. And it's like nearly every team. Or young players who are 5 years away from the MLB.

Finance and 40 man effect everything. Trades, rule 5, free agency etc.

Optp can be abused even by a common user. Sorry I don't play games to police myself.

I'm a gamer. I would grab 50 titles before I grab OOTP except when I am craving baseball.

As great as OOTP is at the game of baseball on field, projections and stats it's absolutely awful at the gym management experience. And it's mostly because the finance model is too simple.

[ashantewarrier]

I’m playing OOTP22 and find the GM experience realistic as possibly it can be and enjoyable. GM mode with fictional is the only way I play. The financial model, while far from perfect, is a good simulation. It’s far from “borderline unplayable.”

In regards to OOTP23, it still needs some work which is why I am not playing it right now even though I own the game. The graphics need to be patched for us Mac users.

Let’s appreciate that Markus, Lukas, and the rest of the development team are open to constructive criticism. There are many other game developers who don’t give a darn about their customers, who don’t bother to provide patches and fixes, and would just move on to their next project.

Saying the game is “borderline unplayable” is just hyperbole.


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