Thread for player identification in team photos

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Continuing the back row...
(1) Jim McKeever, (2) George Winkelman, (3) John Moriarty, (4) Robert Foster, (5) Owen Patton, (6) John Shaw, (7) Charles Willis.

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Moving to the front row:
(8) Miah Murray, (9) George Ganzel or James Allen, (10) Elias Peak, (11) Elmer Foster, (12) Bill Hawes, (13) William Tuckerman, (14) George Meister

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Finishing the front row (except Player 9):
(8) Miah Murray, (9) George Ganzel or James Allen, (10) Elias Peak, (11) Elmer Foster, (12) Bill Hawes, (13) William Tuckerman, (14) George Meister

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For Player 9 in the front row, the proposed identification is George Ganzel. I'm proposing to consider instead James Allen. The St. Paul Globe indicates he was signed "as the fifteenth man" on March 7, 1887, so he was present at the same time as Ganzel. The sketch of Allen comes from the Cedar Rapids Gazzette (May 15, 1891); the accompanying biography puts Allen at 5' 4" and 130 lbs and gives his birth date as November 1868. (I have other information on him that suggests he may have been born a few years earlier than that.) Allen played in a game on April 29 against St. Paul, right when Ganzel was released. He was reported as released on May 5 with Visner.

The nose looks more Allen than Ganzel, IMO. The size matched that reported for Allen as well. I do not know if there is a size reported for Ganzel.

After Ganzel, Allen and Visner were released, the club stayed at twelve (if my math is right) until Gus Klopf was signed on May 21, as best I can tell. I'm not sure when some of the other players on the roster on BR were signed after that, so I can't say when the number of players would have gotten back to thirteen, plus the manager for fourteen total in the photo.

Visner, BTW, gets mentioned in the papers in early April, and then not again until May 5, when his release was reported (as best I can tell). It is possible he never showed for spring games, or he was hurt very early in the spring. But he strikes me as unlikely to be in the photo, given his absence from any spring games.

[cinemaodyssey]

Originally Posted by prewinter

Where did you find the photo of Williams? I'm trying to get a feel for his age in 1886 to see if he could be the person between Shafer and Purcell in the middle row. Thanks!

I couldn't find the corresonding news article but I remember it saying he was in his late 60s at the taking of the picture. I want to say the article came on in the 1940s.

[cinemaodyssey]

For the Allen vs. Ganzel arguement, I think you're too easily dismissing familial similarities. That player is a dead-ringer for his brother in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

For the Allen vs. Ganzel arguement, I think you're too easily dismissing familial similarities. That player is a dead-ringer for his brother in my opinion.

Here are the Ganzel brothers, along with Player 9. Two things about the comparison do leave me doubting that it is Ganzel, and both may just be the angle of the Minnesota photo. The first is that the face on Player 9 seems rounder, and shorter in the chin, than the Ganzels. The second is the nose, especially as drawn on George. Something about it just seems off in the comparison.

That said, I definitely see the Ganzel comparison. I'm just trying to understand where Allen would be, especially since he was known to be on the club at whatever time the photo was taken. I suppose it is possible they were planning on cutting him instead of Ganzel, and thus didn't include him in the photo. Or maybe he overslept that day. Threads of Our Game mentions one other known photo of him from 1906. Can you point me to that?

[cinemaodyssey]

Certainly. This came from RUKen and was dated 1906.

[prewinter]

Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

Certainly. This came from RUKen and was dated 1906.

The head is more in line with the shape of the unknown player than his brothers' heads.

Do we know anything about his size? Both John and Charlie are listed at 6' 0".

Added: Answering my own question (in part), he is describes as 180 lbs in the Star Tribune of February 7, 1887.

Paul W.

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I went and looked at the REI auction from which the team photo was taken (https://robertedwardauctions.com/auc...s-team-cabinet), and they claimed that Con Murphy was the player seated at the far right. As someone from Missouri once said, "Show Me!" So I looked. Here is the photo of Con Murphy from Baseball Reference, alongside the last person seated on the right, and the comparison with Meister shown above. I'm still inclined to go with Meister, but I'm also going to look at who else would be in there if Con Murphy were in the picture.

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I've been looking again at where Sam Kimber could be, as it really seem like he should be in the photo. I'm now thinking he might be the third player (from the left) in the back row. He is listed at 5' 10", the same height as Tom Lynch (back row on the right).

The middle photo of Kimber comes from 1885 with Richmond.

[cinemaodyssey]

Seeing those photos together, I can definitely see similarities between the hairline and chin.

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Here is a photo of the 1887 Des Moines Team of the Northwestern League. An article in the Des Moines Register on April 19, 1887 stated "We were the recipient last evening of two fine photos of the Des Moines Base Ball team, gotten up in Tim James style." The roster at the time can be established from the spring training games played by Des Moines. Based on the roster, the suggested identifications are:
Back row: Frank Wells (5' 7"), Tim Brosnan (5' 8"), George Whiteley (5' 11"), Sy Sutcliffe (6' 2"), Charlie Fatz (5' 10"), Bill Van Dyke (5' 8") or John Campbell
Middle row: Samuel Bittle (former boxer), Will Bryan (Manager), Sam Larocque, Bill Van Dyke or John Campbell
Front row: Harry Sage, Billy Alvord

Matches can be seen here:
https://krispaulw.com/baseball/histo...oines1887.html

The only players under question (or at least that I am not certain of) are Bill Van Dyke and John Campbell. I'm presenting a comparison of Van Dyke with the two players (back row right and middle row right). I think he is back row right, leaving Campbell as middle row right. There are many photos of Van Dyke out there, so feel free to post others for comparison.

Other notes: Sam Bittle was a well-known boxer at the time who gave up boxing to pitch for Des Moines. http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/SamBittle.htm
Will Bryan was the recipient of a Medal of Honor and managed one of the first professional baseball clubs in England. I think the child is one of his two children from his first marriage.
https://sabr.org/bioproj/person/willam-c-bryan/

Update 10/6/2021: Van Dyke looks to be in the front row on the right. Alvord seems to be in the middle row on the right. That puts Campbell in the back row on the right.

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Revisiting the identification of Billy Alvord in the front row, instead proposing he is the player on the far right in the middle row. Here are all three players now in play (all at the far right in the three rows), plus comps for Van Dyke and Alvord. The photos of Alvord are from the 1888 season, one from an Old Judge card and the other from a composite of the 1888 club. The hair seems a better match for the player from the front row, IMO. Alvord is listed as 5' 10".

I still think Van Dyke is the player in the back row. - After review, probably not Van Dyke.

9/30/2021 The consensus is that Van Dyke is the player in the front row, Alvord is the player in the middle row, and John Campbell is the player in the back row.

[cinemaodyssey]

This came with players unidentified from a book on the Western League. The May 11, 1886 Topeka Daily Press gives us a pretty clear picture of what the roster was supposed to be: Lou Meyers, Ed Macon, William Forrest, Duke Jantzen, George Bright, William Buerger, Butch Blake, Arthur Hull, Alex Voss and Billy Klusman.

Just eyeballing this, Voss looks to be the player in the middle row, 2nd from the right. I like Klusman to be the player in the middle row, far left. Lou Meyers appears to be a good fit for the player in the front row, far left (though I'm basing this on a woodcut).

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Originally Posted by cinemaodyssey

This came with players unidentified from a book on the Western League. The May 11, 1886 Topeka Daily Press gives us a pretty clear picture of what the roster was supposed to be: Lou Meyers, Ed Macon, William Forrest, Duke Jantzen, George Bright, William Buerger, Butch Blake, Arthur Hull, Alex Voss and Billy Klusman.

Just eyeballing this, Voss looks to be the player in the middle row, 2nd from the right. I like Klusman to be the player in the middle row, far left. Lou Meyers appears to be a good fit for the player in the front row, far left (though I'm basing this on a woodcut).

The same book has a photo of three players from the Blues a few pages earlier. Arthur Hull is pictured in a composite team photo of the 1887 Milwaukee club shown in The Rise of Milwaukee Baseball (pg 134). His photo from that composite is shown below.

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A couple of other notes about the Leadville Blues from 1886. The player Hungler listed with the club on Baseball-Reference is Al Hungler. He joined the club in mid-May, sometime around May 15 or so. Briggs is Charlie Briggs, and he was signed in July, 1886. Hungler and Jantzen both havre cards in the Old Judge set. Briggs shows up in an 1888 Davenport photo. I'll post some images tomorrow.

10/6/2021 Here are photos of Jantzen, Hungler and Voss.
Note: When I had these on my computer they weren't nearly as blurry. Try viewing at 50% size.

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I think the player in the back on the left in the second photo (of the three players) is Duke Jantzen. I'm now wondering about the two different uniforms in the two photos, and whether that means the team photo is a different season.

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This photo was up for auction more than a few years back (https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item...a-firecrackers), and there are names under the photo, but it is hard to make them out. A little photo-editing magic helps.

Back row: Prescott r.f.; Unclear; Butch McIntyre p.; Joe Ardner 2nd.
Front row: George Westlake s.s, Capt.; Frank Wells p; Lew Porter (Louis porter001lou?) c; George Schable 3b; Danny Friend p; Jim Long lf

Wells joined the club around June 10, and on June 13, this exact group of players played against Memphis. I think the missing player is Leech Maskrey.

[tnfoto]

Originally Posted by prewinter

This photo was up for auction more than a few years back (https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item...a-firecrackers), and there are names under the photo, but it is hard to make them out. A little photo-editing magic helps.

Back row: Prescott r.f.; Unclear; Butch McIntyre p.; Joe Ardner 2nd.
Front row: George Westlake s.s, Capt.; Frank Wells p; Lew Porter (Louis porter001lou?) c; George Schable 3b; Danny Friend p; Jim Long lf

Wells joined the club around June 10, and on June 13, this exact group of players played against Memphis. I think the missing player is Leech Maskrey.

The missing player is Maskrey. Here is a much clearer version.