Pete Rose: I changed my mind. - Page 4

Jason Moyer · 06-20-2014, 04:56 PM

a.) I think Rose should be reinstated. Whether that's now or upon his death is up to the commissioner, but I think there are different degrees of guilt when it comes to betting on baseball and that what he did, while something that should absolutely result in a ban of some sort, was not the same as what Joe Jackson and his teammates did. Throwing games? Permanent ban. Throwing a world series? If there were something worse than a permanent ban, I'd be ok with it. Damaging the integrity of the game by betting on games that you participated in as a coach or manager? A long-term ban. Maybe even a lifetime ban. I'm not sure I think it warrants a permanent one, though.

b.) Players have taken legal and illegal PEDs for 140+ years. They took them in the 19th century, they took them during the deadball era, they took them in the 1930's, they took them after World War II, they took them in the 60's and 70's, they took them during the "steroid era", and they're taking them now. Baseball should and does have rules in place now to deal with them, and the punishments that have been collectively bargained seem more than appropriate (IMO they're probably a little harsh). Having said that, I still don't see any logical justification for demonizing a small group of players from a specific time period who differ from their predecessors not in terms of behavior but rather in having the misfortune of playing at a time when that behavior was outed and scrutinized. Bonds did nothing different than his godfather did, yet one of them is revered and held as a symbol of the golden age of pure baseball (for babyboomers) and the other is reviled. I suspect that, as with all things, the way people view Bonds in 25 years will be substantially kinder than it is now.

Questdog · 06-20-2014, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

Having said that, I still don't see any logical justification for demonizing a small group of players from a specific time period who differ from their predecessors not in terms of behavior but rather in having the misfortune of playing at a time when that behavior was outed and scrutinized. Bonds did nothing different than his godfather did, yet one of them is revered and held as a symbol of the golden age of pure baseball (for babyboomers) and the other is reviled. I suspect that, as with all things, the way people view Bonds in 25 years will be substantially kinder than it is now.

The reason to demonize them over their predecessors is they found PEDs that were much more effective and went to much greater lengths to get them into their bodies. There were never needles involved before or mad scientist doctors concocting secret formulas in hidden laboratories....

Taking greenies and injecting HGH and steroids are about as comparable as drinking a cup of coffee and snorting cocaine.....

John Madden · 06-20-2014, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

The reason to demonize them over their predecessors is they found PEDs that were much more effective and went to much greater lengths to get them into their bodies. There were never needles involved before or mad scientist doctors concocting secret formulas in hidden laboratories....

Taking greenies and injecting HGH and steroids are about as comparable as drinking a cup of coffee and snorting cocaine.....

Weren't you the one who made that claim before, and had Curt Schilling himself come in and tell you how wrong you were?

Jason Moyer · 06-20-2014, 06:05 PM

I used to pop ephedrine tablets when they were still legal, and they'd keep me awake and productive for 2-3 days. Amphetamines are much stronger than that.

Caffeine may be underrated as far as "drugs that people abuse" go, but comparing it to greenies is hilarious. And players in the 60's and 70's were taking more than greenies, anyway.

So, basically, the reason they're demonized is because a.) most people have a very limited and apocryphal knowledge of drugs and b.) most people have a very limited and apocryphal knowledge of the history of baseball.

Questdog · 06-20-2014, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Madden

Weren't you the one who made that claim before, and had Curt Schilling himself come in and tell you how wrong you were?

I love Curt, but he is wrong.....I took greenies myself back in the day and they don't make your testicles shrink and your head grow into a beach ball.....they are just diet pills (amphetamines) and I could never really tell that they did anything much at all......

rudel.dietrich · 06-20-2014, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

I love Curt, but he is wrong.....I took greenies myself back in the day and they don't make your testicles shrink and your head grow into a beach ball.....they are just diet pills (amphetamines) and I could never really tell that they did anything much at all......

John Madden · 06-20-2014, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

I love Curt, but he is wrong.....I took greenies myself back in the day and they don't make your testicles shrink and your head grow into a beach ball.....they are just diet pills (amphetamines) and I could never really tell that they did anything much at all......

Yeah, it was you. You're the one claiming studying for a test is the same as an athletic competition, so I think I'll defer to the professional athlete's opinion over yours. Thanks for playing, though!

Questdog · 06-20-2014, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Madden

Yeah, it was you. You're the one claiming studying for a test is the same as an athletic competition, so I think I'll defer to the professional athlete's opinion over yours. Thanks for playing, though!

???

Anyway, I ain't arguing that crap again.....just ask your doctor next time you see him.....

Le Grande Orange · 06-20-2014, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Madden

What Rose did was banned decades before Rose was born, and for very good reason. The players and managers cannot and should not have links to gamblers.

And, again, for more recent examples, one only has to look at the gambling scandals that have plagued Taiwan's professional baseball over the years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

Steroid use was illegal before baseball ever took any notice of it.

They may have been illegal in the civil sense, but which of the Major League Rules did steroid or other drug use violate back then? I cannot find any such rule. The most one can claim is it falling under the general label of 'misconduct'. Gambling, on the other hand, was given specific mention in the rules, and for a very long time.

Questdog · 06-20-2014, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

They may have been illegal in the civil sense, but which of the Major League Rules did steroid or other drug use violate back then? I cannot find any such rule. The most one can claim is it falling under the general label of 'misconduct'. Gambling, on the other hand, was given specific mention in the rules, and for a very long time.

Baseball should not have to make rules to ban things that are against the law.....

Le Grande Orange · 06-20-2014, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

Baseball should not have to make rules to ban things that are against the law.....

So the Major League Rules have to have a section devoted to prohibiting murder?

Jason Moyer · 06-21-2014, 12:44 AM

Baseball should permanently ban anyone who breaks the law apparently. Which means there would quite possibly be no one in the Hall Of Fame other than Christy Mathewson.

Questdog · 06-21-2014, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

So the Major League Rules have to have a section devoted to prohibiting murder?

Read my sentence again.....

You are the one that said Steroids were not against the rules and I said they didn't have to be against the rules since they were illegal......murder is also illegal, so I don't think we need a rule to make it an offense.....

stl jason · 06-21-2014, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

The reason to demonize them over their predecessors is they found PEDs that were much more effective and went to much greater lengths to get them into their bodies. There were never needles involved before or mad scientist doctors concocting secret formulas in hidden laboratories....

Taking greenies and injecting HGH and steroids are about as comparable as drinking a cup of coffee and snorting cocaine.....

Pud Galvin was injecting PEDs back in the 1880s:

Pud Galvin: The Godfather of Juicing | Bleacher Report

might not have been as effective as the stuff today, but it was still happening. On the subject of the steroid era, ran across this piece (long, but interesting read):

ESPN.com - E-Ticket: Who Knew?

stl jason · 06-21-2014, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Questdog

Read my sentence again.....

You are the one that said Steroids were not against the rules and I said they didn't have to be against the rules since they were illegal......murder is also illegal, so I don't think we need a rule to make it an offense.....

that's my take on it as well. Anabolic steroids were classified as a controlled substance that required a prescription/medical reason for usage around 1990 (I believe); so unless all those MLB players had a medical reason for using them, they were all breaking federal law, regardless of whether MLB specifically banned them or not. Heck, in 1991, Fay Vincent issued a memo prohibiting the use of steroids. Kinda sad that the owners/players can just claim they never saw it (wink wink, nudge nudge) as an excuse to why they used them anyway or turned a 'blind' eye to it.

Jason Moyer · 06-22-2014, 08:49 AM

This isn't really in reply to you, because I don't think you're making this argument, but Amphetamines have been controlled substances since 1970. Which means Mays, Stargell, Schmidt, Rose, etc were all taking illegal PEDs during their careers (and Mays/Stargell were distributing them, which is even worse).

BaseballMan · 06-22-2014, 12:17 PM

We need to keep in mind that it is not a lifetime ban but permanently ineligible. There is no time limit. It could be the rest of his life or another 10 years. So he's permanently ineligible but for how long.
I'm not sure about letting him in the hall. It does seem strange not to have the all time leader in hits not in the hall.
I do understand the argument against him in that he broke a cardinal rule. Baseball isn't the United States Justice System. It can choose what a players punishment is and for how long.
Betting on his own team is still betting. I have heard opinions that he may have had only his interest in mind and not that of the team. In effect he may have used players without thinking of the next game.
Then again a player is not guaranteed an amount of games he must play and is available for all games if healthy and not banned. Did his betting affect their health?

Questdog · 06-22-2014, 02:44 PM

If he is hurting the team to win future games, he his hurting himself to win future bets, so the two goals are in sync......and you should not manage for tomorrow's game anyway; win today and let tomorrow take care of itself, it might even rain.....

ThatSeventiesGuy · 06-22-2014, 03:04 PM

My take is, lifetime bans should be just that LIFETIME bans. Once the player dies, they should be in if their stats warrant it.

PotatoPeeler · 06-22-2014, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dargone

Nah, keep him out I say.

However, I'm very biased. I worked a few feet away from Pete Rose for over a year when I worked at the Forum Shops here in Vegas. He signs autographs/memorabilia at the sports memorabilia shop at the aforementioned Forum Shops (not sure if he still does). The guy was a major jackass to pretty much everyone including a co-worker who had no idea who he was.

Unlike Tony Gwynn, this guy is not a class act.

Agreed. Baseball is a better institution without him as a part of it.

06-20-2014, 04:56 PM	#61
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,088	a.) I think Rose should be reinstated. Whether that's now or upon his death is up to the commissioner, but I think there are different degrees of guilt when it comes to betting on baseball and that what he did, while something that should absolutely result in a ban of some sort, was not the same as what Joe Jackson and his teammates did. Throwing games? Permanent ban. Throwing a world series? If there were something worse than a permanent ban, I'd be ok with it. Damaging the integrity of the game by betting on games that you participated in as a coach or manager? A long-term ban. Maybe even a lifetime ban. I'm not sure I think it warrants a permanent one, though. b.) Players have taken legal and illegal PEDs for 140+ years. They took them in the 19th century, they took them during the deadball era, they took them in the 1930's, they took them after World War II, they took them in the 60's and 70's, they took them during the "steroid era", and they're taking them now. Baseball should and does have rules in place now to deal with them, and the punishments that have been collectively bargained seem more than appropriate (IMO they're probably a little harsh). Having said that, I still don't see any logical justification for demonizing a small group of players from a specific time period who differ from their predecessors not in terms of behavior but rather in having the misfortune of playing at a time when that behavior was outed and scrutinized. Bonds did nothing different than his godfather did, yet one of them is revered and held as a symbol of the golden age of pure baseball (for babyboomers) and the other is reviled. I suspect that, as with all things, the way people view Bonds in 25 years will be substantially kinder than it is now. __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech Last edited by Jason Moyer; 06-20-2014 at 05:01 PM.

06-20-2014, 06:05 PM	#64
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,088	I used to pop ephedrine tablets when they were still legal, and they'd keep me awake and productive for 2-3 days. Amphetamines are much stronger than that. Caffeine may be underrated as far as "drugs that people abuse" go, but comparing it to greenies is hilarious. And players in the 60's and 70's were taking more than greenies, anyway. So, basically, the reason they're demonized is because a.) most people have a very limited and apocryphal knowledge of drugs and b.) most people have a very limited and apocryphal knowledge of the history of baseball. __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech Last edited by Jason Moyer; 06-20-2014 at 06:07 PM.

06-21-2014, 12:44 AM	#72
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,088	Baseball should permanently ban anyone who breaks the law apparently. Which means there would quite possibly be no one in the Hall Of Fame other than Christy Mathewson. __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

06-22-2014, 08:49 AM	#76
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,088	This isn't really in reply to you, because I don't think you're making this argument, but Amphetamines have been controlled substances since 1970. Which means Mays, Stargell, Schmidt, Rose, etc were all taking illegal PEDs during their careers (and Mays/Stargell were distributing them, which is even worse). __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech Last edited by Jason Moyer; 06-22-2014 at 08:52 AM.

06-22-2014, 03:04 PM	#79
ThatSeventiesGuy Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Midland, MI Posts: 3,426	My take is, lifetime bans should be just that LIFETIME bans. Once the player dies, they should be in if their stats warrant it. __________________ https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...00&postcount=1

06-22-2014, 12:17 PM	#77
BaseballMan Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,542	We need to keep in mind that it is not a lifetime ban but permanently ineligible. There is no time limit. It could be the rest of his life or another 10 years. So he's permanently ineligible but for how long. I'm not sure about letting him in the hall. It does seem strange not to have the all time leader in hits not in the hall. I do understand the argument against him in that he broke a cardinal rule. Baseball isn't the United States Justice System. It can choose what a players punishment is and for how long. Betting on his own team is still betting. I have heard opinions that he may have had only his interest in mind and not that of the team. In effect he may have used players without thinking of the next game. Then again a player is not guaranteed an amount of games he must play and is available for all games if healthy and not banned. Did his betting affect their health?

06-22-2014, 02:44 PM	#78
Questdog Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: In a dark, damp cave where I'm training slugs to run the bases...... Posts: 16,142	If he is hurting the team to win future games, he his hurting himself to win future bets, so the two goals are in sync......and you should not manage for tomorrow's game anyway; win today and let tomorrow take care of itself, it might even rain.....