Pinch hitting

[Dutch Alexander]

Originally Posted by Dutch Alexander

In v.11 & v.12 I've played out 7 NL seasons like this. I do not have the data for all seasons but I recon my pinch hitters have hit about .120 with very few x-tra basehits and a ton of K's. Over these seasons my pitchers have outhit my pinch hitters. I am aware of the concept of sample size, but thats over SEVEN SEASONS. In real life pinch hitters hit probably about .220. The last 10 seasons in RL the lowest BA for a NL team pinch hitting is .152. One season of pinch hitting around .100, alright, could happen (sample size). But SEVEN?

Well to be honest, this is not completely accurate. I've actually completed 7 TOTAL seasons in v11 & v12. Only 5 were NL seasons. I've also started a sixth NL season that was halfway when v13 came out.

Originally Posted by Dutch Alexander

It's also hard to retrieve data from past seasons sometimes. I usually play the MLB quickstart, playing out one season. After the season is over I then start a new career. But before doing that I usually progress to the next calendar year. But when you do that PH data is no longer accessible. Also from the Almanac it is not possible to access PH data. Therefor I was only able to retrieve data from 3 of my 7 seasons.

I was actually able to retrieve data from each individual batter from the almanac and put it in an Excel file. This is from a carreer I started with the New York Mets in v12. This is the only career I've ever progressed further than one season. The two excel sheets below are from the first two seasons retrieved from the almanac. (You can't accuse me of not putting an effort into this).
The copy-past clip is from the third season that only got halfway. You can see here that in this career my PH actually fared a bit better, but still well below RL standards.

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by megamanmatt

No really helpful but I don't notice the PH problem in my fictional leagues. PH batting totals seem fairly consistent with MLB averages.

Originally Posted by The Game

I have had success pinch hitting prior to this season. I would have to double check but I believe my PH's hit .270 my last season. This season I am 5 -42 .119 avg, but I have lesser talented players and my main PH is 2-15.

But I believe PH on OOTP is comparable to RL MLB. Cubs are 3 for 17 .176
Cards are 5-17 .294

Do you two SIM or PLAY OUT your games??

Does your league have a DH or is it primarily PH for the pitcher?

[Dutch Alexander]

Originally Posted by Dutch Alexander

In v.11 & v.12 I've played out 7 NL seasons like this. I do not have the data for all seasons but I recon my pinch hitters have hit about .120 with very few x-tra basehits and a ton of K's. Over these seasons my pitchers have outhit my pinch hitters. I am aware of the concept of sample size, but thats over SEVEN SEASONS. In real life pinch hitters hit probably about .220. The last 10 seasons in RL the lowest BA for a NL team pinch hitting is .152. One season of pinch hitting around .100, alright, could happen (sample size). But SEVEN?

Originally Posted by Dutch Alexander

Well, like I mentioned before the lowest PH BA in RL MLB the past ten seasons is .152. The average BA is about .220 - .230. From the three examples I gave you can see that the BA I got from my PH over 3 seasons was .107. Now that is a big difference. Again, my pitchers are outhitting my pinch hitters. I just checked: over those mentioned 3 seasons my pitchers were 58 for 327, 54 for 331 and 37 for 322. That's 149 for 990 in total which comes down to a .151 BA. At the same time my PH were 52 for 486 in total, a .107 average.

These statements still hold true. I haven't checked for all seasons but as you can see in the above comment my pitchers hit .151 over three seasons, higher then my PH. Below you'll find an excel sheet with the total numbers for all the NL seasons I mentioned in this thread. Below that an Excel sheet with numbers for the average NL team in RL the past five seasons. And finally PH totals for each NL team in 2011. As you can see, a large difference between RL and in-game.

[Dutch Alexander]

Here's the PH totals for NL teams in RL in 2011. This was the worst year for PH during the past 5 seasons. As you can see, there are some awful PH performances for a few teams. These are the worst PH seasons for teams the past 5 years. Still, my average PH perform far worse. Extreme seasons as I've experienced do not happen in RL.

[OldFatGuy]

By the way Dutch Alexander, I've played out every inning of every game 1-pitch mode of OVER FIFTY seasons. And it was like this EVERY TIME. But I didn't do an almanac or encylopedia or whatever it's called so of course no one believes it.

I don't know how many times you have to have a coin flipped come up heads before you think something is wrong, but over 50 has to get you at least thinking. I remember I wasn't last in PH average every one of those 50 years but I was in the bottom half every one of those 50 years. And I can guarantee you I had a better bench than most of the AI teams.

But like I said, this one is just too big to admit to. Because if it's admitted that results are figured differently for playing out and simming, there will be an unroar of unhappy customers.

[megamanmatt]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

But like I said, this one is just too big to admit to. Because if it's admitted that results are figured differently for playing out and simming, there will be an unroar of unhappy customers.

The only discrepency I've ever found between playing games as simming them is pitch counts being generally lower when playing out games vs. simming them. That's just me though.

[endgame]

Okay. Discuss on, but know the thread has been linked and the issue/concern has been logged. In addition, I've asked for a response to the underlying question about how a sim differs in any way from other methods of play in terms of results. Let's hope for the official response by the next patch. Thanks, all, for your exchanges.

[Dutch Alexander]

Originally Posted by megamanmatt

No really helpful but I don't notice the PH problem in my fictional leagues. PH batting totals seem fairly consistent with MLB averages.

Originally Posted by megamanmatt

The only discrepency I've ever found between playing games as simming them is pitch counts being generally lower when playing out games vs. simming them. That's just me though.

So do you only play fictional? Do you use the DH? Perhaps you play the game differently and dont have this problem because of that.

[megamanmatt]

Originally Posted by Dutch Alexander

So do you only play fictional? Do you use the DH? Perhaps you play the game differently and dont have this problem because of that.

Basic MLB setup. Right now that would be 2 leagues with one of 14 teams with a DH and one with 12 without since I'm in the early 90's.

[Dutch Alexander]

Originally Posted by DCG12

The problem is batting average. Every league I have tested my team always hits below .190. Last year in MLB both AL and, more importantly, NL teams both hit .214.
In the league I am playing right now which is fictional and is half way through the season PH's are hitting .136 and pitchers are hitting .186 but pitchers have struck out far more than PH have. In the NL last year PH's struckout about 28% of the time. In my league they are currently striking out @ just under 30% so not bad.
The other issue is power hitting. PH's when they do get hits for human teams don't hit doubles or HR's like they should. There were 70 PH HR's in the NL last year in 3645 AB's. In my test league I have never had more than 2 Hr's in a season. Doubles are just as bad.
Ok as to Markus. I don't think we have gotten across to him yet that it is a playing out vs. simming issue. In a recent thread he made the comment that in his test sim batting averages looked ok and that is the problem, if you sim or look at teams that the human doesn't control the numbers look acceptable.
I will post in the beta forum and see if I can get him to revisit this issue. I will point him to this thread also.

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

I did some extensive testing in 12, and found compelling evidence, but was never sure when "enough" was enough for the sample size crowd, and just quit. Changed my leagues to the unbaseball travesty the DH, and moved on.

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

FWIW, I did extensive testing and it "seemed" as though the problem was not only limited to those playing out games, and not only limited to the human player, but it was also limited to the human player pinch hitting FOR THE PITCHER.
For some reason pinch hitting for position players didn't show the same dreadful downfall.

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

By the way Dutch Alexander, I've played out every inning of every game 1-pitch mode of OVER FIFTY seasons. And it was like this EVERY TIME. But I didn't do an almanac or encylopedia or whatever it's called so of course no one believes it.

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

I don't know how many times you have to have a coin flipped come up heads before you think something is wrong, but over 50 has to get you at least thinking. I remember I wasn't last in PH average every one of those 50 years but I was in the bottom half every one of those 50 years. And I can guarantee you I had a better bench than most of the AI teams.
But like I said, this one is just too big to admit to. Because if it's admitted that results are figured differently for playing out and simming, there will be an unroar of unhappy customers.

Well, from the data I provided and the reactions of some other users I think it has become clear beyond any reasonable doubt that there is an issue. I guess for the moment I've said all there is to say about it. Let's hope it gets fixed.

[megamanmatt]

Hm... doubles and triples may be lower than average for PHs though. I suppose I really don't have an idea of average for PH doubles and triples but I've got about 100-105 PH HRs so I'm alright in that category. Only 3 PH triples though and 33 PH doubles.

[megamanmatt]

Well damn. I didn't realize I had a filter on. Ignore what I said my numbers are much higher than that.

edit: this is a different league than the one I'm currently playing also. This one is modern MLB 5-5-4/5-6-5

[megamanmatt]

I've totaled x-base hits so far. Average and total hits will take me sometime longer:

Doubles: 241
Triples: 25
Home Runs: 146


Now I'm off to total ABs, hits, and of course average.

[DoubleBacon]

Not helpful I know, but I did calculate my PH stats and they are low. I'm 2-15 (.133) with one run scored. I know that's not a big enough sample size to be useful, hell for that matter the real Reds might be hitting .133 off the bench lol. But what I did find interesting is all 13 out's were K's?? Now that does seem unlikely. If this is a problem I hope they can patch it soon. PH's are often the most important bats of a game.

[DCG12]

Megamanmatt,

The question is do you play out your games and I mean the majority of your games? At least 85% or more.

If you sim a couple weeks and then play a week and then sim a couple more weeks and then look at your stat total you're not going to see the problem. This is an isue that affects only those who play out all or almost all their games.

As I said earlier I have been tracking this problem for the last three versions and have a yellow legal pad full of game results vs. real life.

Endgame and I are pushing this in the beta forum trying to get some feedback from Markus so hopefully it will get resolved.

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by DCG12

Megamanmatt,

The question is do you play out your games and I mean the majority of your games? At least 85% or more.

If you sim a couple weeks and then play a week and then sim a couple more weeks and then look at your stat total you're not going to see the problem. This is an isue that affects only those who play out all or almost all their games.

As I said earlier I have been tracking this problem for the last three versions and have a yellow legal pad full of game results vs. real life.

Endgame and I are pushing this in the beta forum trying to get some feedback from Markus so hopefully it will get resolved.

I would also like to know if his league has a DH. When I kept track I noticed the problem much more when specifically PINCH HITTING FOR THE PITCHER.

I haven't seen Megamanmatt answer either of those questions yet. Does he play out ALL of his games and does he use the DH? If he uses the DH, he's not pinch hitting for the pitcher.

ADDED: And Meganmanmatt is yours a FICTIONAL league or are you using the MLB quickstart?

[megamanmatt]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

I would also like to know if his league has a DH. When I kept track I noticed the problem much more when specifically PINCH HITTING FOR THE PITCHER.

I haven't seen Megamanmatt answer either of those questions yet. Does he play out ALL of his games and does he use the DH? If he uses the DH, he's not pinch hitting for the pitcher.

ADDED: And Meganmanmatt is yours a FICTIONAL league or are you using the MLB quickstart?

I only answer questions once and the only question I haven't answered is whether I play out games. Yes. 100%.

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by megamanmatt

I only answer questions once and the only question I haven't answered is whether I play out games. Yes. 100%.

Sorry, my bad.

I still don't see where you answered whether YOUR TEAM, the team you play out 100%, is in the DH league or non-DH league. Did you answer that and I missed it?

[megamanmatt]

Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

Sorry, my bad.

I still don't see where you answered whether YOUR TEAM, the team you play out 100%, is in the DH league or non-DH league. Did you answer that and I missed it?

non DH. I'm currently trying to see if there is a difference between v12 and v13. So far extra base hits are down considerably however averages remain constant, if not a little higher than they probably should be. I haven't counted them out yet but an initial estimation would be they sit at roughly half the extra base hits from the previous year run in v12.

edit: Some of the differences can be attributed to modifiers it seems. I forgot to neutralize them so triples happened at a 10% lower frequency and HRs at almost 20% less.

[Dutch Alexander]

Originally Posted by megamanmatt

Basic MLB setup. Right now that would be 2 leagues with one of 14 teams with a DH and one with 12 without since I'm in the early 90's.

So I take it your playing historical and not using the MLB quickstart? I have played one historical league and had excelent PH result which I posted earlier in the thread. Perhaps there is a difference playing historical and using the MLB quickstart somehow.