How does this game get good ratings ???

[The Real MD]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

Maybe Markus gets people buying every version because their enjoying the game, but some people don't see that because their blinded by their bitterness that people don't agree with their views.

Yeah, that's it. My last post was just oozing with bitterness.

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by The Real MD

Yeah, that's it. My last post was just oozing with bitterness.

I didn't think enough of your post for mine to be specifically aimed at your post or I would have quoted your post as I have done here.

[ukhotstove]

Anyway to get back on topic, personally I'd give OOTP a good rating because of the enjoyment it's given me over the years. Enjoyment not only of playing the game but also of being able to create my fictional worlds and get lost in them, also being able to talk baseball with people as baseball fans in Britain are few and far between.

Most importantly though OOTP as given me a chance to make some good friends, friends who will always be welcome at my household if they were ever passing, so to me OOTP is well worth the money so gets a top rating from me.

[The Real MD]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

I didn't think enough of your post for mine to be specifically aimed at your post or I would have quoted your post as I have done here.

No, you just mentioned the part about people buying the game every year...so I'm guessing you thought enough of my post to some extent.

People should be allowed to have opinions (about Markus' business model in this case) without being labeled bitter or intolerant of others' views.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by The Real MD

People should be allowed to have opinions (about Markus' business model in this case) without being labeled bitter or intolerant of others' views.

That's certainly true. But it is also true that some opinions are offered without the requisite 'inside' knowledge, so to speak, of how things actually work behind the scenes. It is easy to make certain assumptions of why things are the way they are from the outside looking in. But when one gets to look at things from the inside, one discovers that it's not necessarily the same as how it looks from the outside.

[PhillieFever]

Originally Posted by mking55

I can't believe I'm going to make a post here again and risk the abuse I usually receive, but what the hell, here goes.

I have purchased every OOTP version from V2 on. I thought the idea was great and perfect for those of us who like to live in the past (obviously I'm an historical player). I have been the commish of 2 long running leagues (it seems anything over 1 year constitutes a long running league) and been a player in others.

I retired from online leagues in late 2005 and buy the game with every release and try it out playing solo. I find that after putting it through it's paces, that I don't play it again. Why do I buy it every year? Because I hope against hope that it can move towards being an excellent game and because I believe in supporting these independent sports sim efforts.

I have found my game of choice to be PureSim. The 2 games are different and while OOTP has more depth (enough to choke a horse but that's okay because some people like it), PureSim remembers it's a game first and for me, that makes it more enjoyable.

OOTP is buggy in areas and it's downright flawed in other areas. They seem to carry on from version to version and that shouldn't happen. Any developer (and I work in the software business) fixes the problems first before introducing new features. That is a basic "rule" and one that OOTP doesn't follow. PureSim gets bug fixes out the door before you can say Jack Robinson. What I find strange about this is that OOTP is a full-time job for Markus and crew (regardless of how few they are), while PureSim was an after-hours job for a maniac who works full-time and has four kids and a good marriage. That doesn't make sense that the part-timer fixes his creation before the full-timer fixes his.

Now Shaun is gone and I'm sure Gary, while not Shaun, is a clever guy and a talented developer/programmer so PureSim should continue to grow and evolve.

There are certain annoyances in OOTP that have been there for a while. If I go to my lineup screen and set it up to show batters and batting stats, and then I leave it, when I come back it's not sticky. Who knows what I'll see. Maybe I'll see my pitchers and their batting stats. That's wrong. If I'm looking for free agents and I subset to catchers (for example), pick a catcher to look at, and then go back it's not catchers anymore, it's everyone. It should be sticky.

If I offer an extension or a contract to a player and my offer was exactly what was being asked for, I don't like getting an email telling me my offer sucks and when I go back and see what they want, it's exactly what I just offered.

There is no excuse for these things and they're well known. OOTP comes out with more "eye candy" every version. Baseball cards??????? Cool, but fix the problems first. I don't understand the support this game gets when the bossman ignores the issues that are flaws in the game.

I've gone back one more time and tried to play. I have a well-known problem with trading and that's the fact that set on the highest level of difficulty and my lineup (1955) has Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, and Hank Aaron in the outfield with Al Kaline and Frank Robinson as bench players. I know I can have house rules and so on and so forth, but I can't get these guys in trades in PureSim. Why? Because when I and others showed Shaun these things, he worked on improving the trading module and while not perfect, is head and shoulders above what OOTP does. And when I wrote to Markus and told him that the trading needs work (as per a similar example) his response was to laugh it off and tell me that OOTP has the best trading module second to none and I must be the incarnation of Theo Epstein. That's arrogance. I wasn't being rude when I wrote but a "professional" would step back and think about this and try to make sure these kind of things don't happen.

And you can attack me for "taking advantage of the AI", but a good AI is built so you can't take advantage of it.

A developer of these niche games has to be a visible presence on the boards. Granted there are times they can't be here but you rarely see Markus. Maybe business is so good, he doesn't have to listen to his audience. That's too bad.

This could have been a great game but I think success and arrogance have derailed it. I don't think I'll be purchasing the next version without playing the demo first.

Now please remember, this is just my opinion and the last time I checked, we weren't Iran and jailing people for their opinions.

And Gary Nolan with 587 wins and a 2.07 ERA is realistic? Come on dude. Listen, I know you don't want to see PureSim die, I read your post but don't you think that coming on this forum and complaining abut things being stickied is a bit lame? If OOTP's biggest problems are what you've mentioned than Markus has done a pretty fine job.

[PhillieFever]

Originally Posted by mking55

Very hard. I always use very hard and very hard is not hard.

As for team chemistry, it doesn't matter. Because my team is so stacked, I have plenty of trade fodder to keep winning forever and ever.

But the post I made was expressing my overall dissatisfaction with the game and my disappointment too while trying to illustrate a few points.

I really don't want to have a trade discussion because they get ugly and cause threads to veer off topic. However, I appreciate your comment.

Have you tried this with the newest version of the game? I ask because Markus added a feature in the last patch which allows the user to prevent the recalc of potential, and this has added greatly to the trade AI.

[Curve Ball Dave]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

Anyway to get back on topic, personally I'd give OOTP a good rating because of the enjoyment it's given me over the years. Enjoyment not only of playing the game but also of being able to create my fictional worlds and get lost in them, also being able to talk baseball with people as baseball fans in Britain are few and far between.

Most importantly though OOTP as given me a chance to make some good friends, friends who will always be welcome at my household if they were ever passing, so to me OOTP is well worth the money so gets a top rating from me.

Great post

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

Most importantly though OOTP as given me a chance to make some good friends, friends who will always be welcome at my household if they were ever passing...

If I ever make it back to the UK, I'm going to take you up on that. I will even buy the first round.

[Cornelius McGillicuddy]

Originally Posted by mking55

I've gone back one more time and tried to play. I have a well-known problem with trading and that's the fact that set on the highest level of difficulty and my lineup (1955) has Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, and Hank Aaron in the outfield with Al Kaline and Frank Robinson as bench players. I know I can have house rules and so on and so forth, but I can't get these guys in trades in PureSim.

A lot of the reason you can get all these guys on your team is you cheat. Sorry, but you have knowledge about them that the AI simply doesn't have. That gives you a huge advantage. And that's one reason a lot of people choose to play fictional only.

I've read AARs from KG, playing PureSim, about how he got players from different teams. I think one was he got DiMaggio from the Yankees and similar stuff. So apparently it CAN be done.

I mostly play strategy and war games. Haven't seen one in 30 years of computer playing that's perfect and has a great AI. But one thing I know is that the simpler the game, the easier it is to program the AI. And PureSim is a whole lot simpler than OOTP.

[mking55]

Originally Posted by mking55

I can't believe I'm going to make a post here again and risk the abuse I usually receive, but what the hell, here goes.

Now please remember, this is just my opinion and the last time I checked, we weren't Iran and jailing people for their opinions.

Maybe we are in Iran. I'll have to look out my window.

I will try and be polite in this post. Sometimes it's hard for me, so here goes

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

Maybe Markus gets people buying every version because their enjoying the game, but some people don't see that because their blinded by their bitterness that people don't agree with their views.

That was a well thought out and useful post. Thank you.

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

And Gary Nolan with 587 wins and a 2.07 ERA is realistic? Come on dude. Listen, I know you don't want to see PureSim die, I read your post but don't you think that coming on this forum and complaining abut things being stickied is a bit lame? If OOTP's biggest problems are what you've mentioned than Markus has done a pretty fine job.

Hmmn. I had an OOTP11 league and Pat Seerey (you must know him since you seem to know how I feel) hit 815 career home runs. I didn't complain about that. I thought it was cool. I think it ranks with Gary Nolan and his 587 career victories.

And I don't think I'm "lame" because my walking ability is just fine.

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

Have you tried this with the newest version of the game? I ask because Markus added a feature in the last patch which allows the user to prevent the recalc of potential, and this has added greatly to the trade AI.

The example I gave in my original post is a league started with the current version and patch.

Originally Posted by rich12545

A lot of the reason you can get all these guys on your team is you cheat. Sorry, but you have knowledge about them that the AI simply doesn't have. That gives you a huge advantage. And that's one reason a lot of people choose to play fictional only.

I've read AARs from KG, playing PureSim, about how he got players from different teams. I think one was he got DiMaggio from the Yankees and similar stuff. So apparently it CAN be done.

Ah yes, I cheat. Perhaps I hack into the code to simplify the game for my evil purposes. You clever devil, how did you know that?

And I don't seem to recognize you from the PureSim boards as a game player with that game. I am therefore both blind and impressed that you can control that game beyond what my cheating ways can.

Thanks guys. It's nice to know that all opinions are welcomed here.

[Cornelius McGillicuddy]

Originally Posted by mking55

Ah yes, I cheat. Perhaps I hack into the code to simplify the game for my evil purposes. You clever devil, how did you know that?

And I don't seem to recognize you from the PureSim boards as a game player with that game. I am therefore both blind and impressed that you can control that game beyond what my cheating ways can.

Thanks guys. It's nice to know that all opinions are welcomed here.

Excuse me but did you bother reading my post? I said you cheat because you have knowledge that the AI doesn't have. I didn't say anything about hacking into the code. Maybe you should try rereading my post. That might help you understand what I said.

I haven't played PureSim in years. The one before 2007 didn't work on my computer, there was a problem that Shaun couldn't fix. Got my money back from Matrix. So I looked around and found OOTP and Mogul. I've played mostly OOTP since. But I've gone back looking at PureSim every so often. Didn't buy another because of the locked desktop res at 1024x768. Take a look at the Wolverine forum and you'll see my recent thread. I thought seriously about buying again but the pbp just isn't very good compared to OOTP. But whether or not I play PureSim has nothing to do with anything. You still cheat when trading with the computer playing historical. Everybody does. That's why I don't trade much playing historical.

[PhillieFever]

Originally Posted by mking55

Maybe we are in Iran. I'll have to look out my window.

I will try and be polite in this post. Sometimes it's hard for me, so here goes



That was a well thought out and useful post. Thank you.



Hmmn. I had an OOTP11 league and Pat Seerey (you must know him since you seem to know how I feel) hit 815 career home runs. I didn't complain about that. I thought it was cool. I think it ranks with Gary Nolan and his 587 career victories.

And I don't think I'm "lame" because my walking ability is just fine.



The example I gave in my original post is a league started with the current version and patch.



Ah yes, I cheat. Perhaps I hack into the code to simplify the game for my evil purposes. You clever devil, how did you know that?

And I don't seem to recognize you from the PureSim boards as a game player with that game. I am therefore both blind and impressed that you can control that game beyond what my cheating ways can.

Thanks guys. It's nice to know that all opinions are welcomed here.

Well, I can guarantee you one thing, Pat Seerey did not hit over 800 home runs in an OOTP sim in which development was disabled and players retired according to history(the way historical sims are meant to be played in OOTP) there's just no way, Seerey played from 1943-1949 hitting a grand total of 86 homers in 1815 AB's. I've tested this game long enough to know that one problem OOTP does not have is statistical accuracy for players over the long haul, as a matter of fact there is not another game on the market that performs better. Season to season maybe, but not over the long haul. Since OOTP tries to be 3 games in one(fictional, modern MLB, and historical) certain settings must be set differently depending on the style of play(obviously you know this, you've had the game forever) while this may not be ideal, it is what it is. Secondly, the option I told you about, preventing the recalc of potential, must be checked manually, it's not default so I'll ask again, did you use this feature? Finally, I never said you were lame, I said your comments were lame, which in fact they were.

[mking55]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

Well, I can guarantee you one thing, Pat Seerey did not hit over 800 home runs in an OOTP sim in which development was disabled and players retired according to history(the way historical sims are meant to be played in OOTP) there's just no way, Seerey played from 1943-1949 hitting a grand total of 86 homers in 1815 AB's. I've tested this game long enough to know that one problem OOTP does not have is statistical accuracy for players over the long haul, as a matter of fact there is not another game on the market that performs better.

This isn't the complete picture of the Pat Seerey OOTP career but just in the midst of it after only hitting 600+ homers. But you're right, the thread linked below with picture illustrates that "one problem OOTP does not have is statistical accuracy for players over the long haul". Thank you for pointing that out. Now that you've assured me that what happened couldn't have happened, I wonder just how it did happen. Will I wake up tomorrow and see Bobby Ewing stepping out of the shower? Gosh, I hope not.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...at-seerey.html

[PhillieFever]

Originally Posted by rich12545

Excuse me but did you bother reading my post? I said you cheat because you have knowledge that the AI doesn't have. I didn't say anything about hacking into the code. Maybe you should try rereading my post. That might help you understand what I said.

I haven't played PureSim in years. The one before 2007 didn't work on my computer, there was a problem that Shaun couldn't fix. Got my money back from Matrix. So I looked around and found OOTP and Mogul. I've played mostly OOTP since. But I've gone back looking at PureSim every so often. Didn't buy another because of the locked desktop res at 1024x768. Take a look at the Wolverine forum and you'll see my recent thread. I thought seriously about buying again but the pbp just isn't very good compared to OOTP. But whether or not I play PureSim has nothing to do with anything. You still cheat when trading with the computer playing historical. Everybody does. That's why I don't trade much playing historical.

Although I really don't have an issue with the trading engine, I prefer real life trades in my sims, so that's what I do,turning trading off otherwise.Tru-life transactions is what really pushed me over the edge to give PS a shot, unfortunately the game just didn't measure up to OOTP with injuries, back history, gameplay, PBP, intuitiveness of the menus, options, statistical accuracy or immersion. It was just an overall inferior product IMO. That said, if someone else feels that PureSim is a better game, than so be it. That's why they make vanilla and chocolate. I just don't see the point coming to this board in order to bash OOTP, it just seems childish to me and I'm ashamed to have even let myself get sucked into someone else's venom.

[PhillieFever]

Originally Posted by mking55

This isn't the complete picture of the Pat Seerey OOTP career but just in the midst of it after only hitting 600+ homers. But you're right, the thread linked below with picture illustrates that "one problem OOTP does not have is statistical accuracy for players over the long haul". Thank you for pointing that out. Now that you've assured me that what happened couldn't have happened, I wonder just how it did happen. Will I wake up tomorrow and see Bobby Ewing stepping out of the shower? Gosh, I hope not.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...at-seerey.html

if you would have read my post you would have seen that it said that it could not have happened if PLAYER DEVELOPMENT WAS DISABLED, AND RETIRE ACCORDING TO HISTORY WAS ENABLED. You can have all sorts of screwy things happen when these OPTIONS are enabled, which some people prefer. Complaining however about statistical accuracy when you set the game up not to be statistically accurate is sort of deceitful don't you think?

[PhillieFever]

Just for giggles, I ran a sim from 1941-1949 using the recommended settings for a historical sim, here's Pat Seerey's numbers/

[Cornelius McGillicuddy]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

Although I really don't have an issue with the trading engine, I prefer real life trades in my sims, so that's what I do,turning trading off otherwise.Tru-life transactions is what really pushed me over the edge to give PS a shot, unfortunately the game just didn't measure up to OOTP with injuries, back history, gameplay, PBP, intuitiveness of the menus, options, statistical accuracy or immersion. It was just an overall inferior product IMO. That said, if someone else feels that PureSim is a better game, than so be it. That's why they make vanilla and chocolate. I just don't see the point coming to this board in order to bash OOTP, it just seems childish to me and I'm ashamed to have even let myself get sucked into someone else's venom.

I play historical just for fun and nostalgia. I'm not trying to win. I'm not trying to get the best team. So I setup the pix, the stadiums and the logos. Then I play out games to see the players and the teams from back when. After maybe half a season I'll pick a different year. I'll come back to the same year over again many times. So I looked at PureSim, like you did, for the Tru-life and the managers (it would be nice if OOTP had this option). But the pbp and the immersion just weren't there.

Fictional, of course, is more of a game. Very different.

[damientheomen3]

To be 100% honest, I love OOTP because, unlike basically all of the other baseball sim games out there, it's geared towards fictional rather than historical. Yes, it means that historical suffers and isn't very good, but really, do we want OOTP to just be another baseball sim, or do we want it to be a unique game? Hell, being that it is so unique in that it focuses on fictional it is one of the best selling baseball sims out there (I dunno how diamond mind and mogul sell).

[mking55]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

if you would have read my post you would have seen that it said that it could not have happened if PLAYER DEVELOPMENT WAS DISABLED, AND RETIRE ACCORDING TO HISTORY WAS ENABLED. You can have all sorts of screwy things happen when these OPTIONS are enabled, which some people prefer. Complaining however about statistical accuracy when you set the game up not to be statistically accurate is sort of deceitful don't you think?

I wasn't going to respond anymore because of the direction the original thread has swerved. You'll notice (perhaps) that I've been a member of this board since 2002 and the one they had before that. As I said, I've bought every version since V2. That doesn't mean I don't have a right to come and post in an existing thread with my "opinion" which in my country we're all entitled to. This comment is not just directed at you.

Now regarding your post above (and this part is directed at you), I have never ever complained about statistical accuracy in this game or the other one. If I want statistical accuracy I'll play Strat or Action or one of those. I like these games because the weird can happen once in a while. If I had a Pat Seerey with 815 home runs or a Gary Nolan with 587 career victories in every league I played, I'd be unhappy. But these unrealistic and rare things don't happen all the time. I love them. I'm not looking to recreate the past, I'm looking at a "what if" scenario in an alternate universe. Rod Serling does the play by play for all my games.

So Mr. PhillieFever, I don't think you're really referring to me when you write "Complaining however about statistical accuracy when you set the game up not to be statistically accurate is sort of deceitful don't you think?" I can honestly say (and you can look it up) I've never complained about statistical accuracy.

That's not news, but that too is reality.