No Canada v USA Thread??

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

We hang around different Torontonians then. QUite a few of them have expounded the virtues of their city as being superior to others on more then one occasion. I will admit thought the sample size is small (less then 100)

I've been here twenty-six years. Never seen such behaviour myself. It's just a place. It does some things better, some things worse.

Originally Posted by Storgers

So because Torontonians get mislabeled you figured you should fire back at Vancouver?

Yup.

Originally Posted by Storgers

I make fun of the leafs as much as anyone...

Hey, I live in Toronto and dump on the Leafs all the time. They suck. They will suck for as long as the brain-dead fans in this town keep treating the club as a contender each year when clearly it's a turkey. As long as the Leafs keep raking in cash every year, there's little reason to change.

[Cooleyvol]

How does the thought process of Leaf fans directly affect the team's performance?

So you're saying that the fans buy Leaf gear simply b/c they think the team to be a contender?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

How does the thought process of Leaf fans directly affect the team's performance?

They keep buying tickets and merchandise regardless of the team's performance. The club can put horrible losers onto the ice, and the arena will be packed regardless. The club is never punished financially for putting turkeys on the ice. And as long as the club is a highly profitable enterprise as it is, why would it really change? And with the salary cap, the club has its expenses limited, so it can make even more money than before.

Too many fans in this town are far too unrealistic about the prospects for the club each season.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

How does the thought process of Leaf fans directly affect the team's performance?

Folks have been pouring cash in the coffers of the leaf owners with substandard return for over four decades, and yet the though process is one of that they always have a chance to win it all, that their team with every move for an over the hill player, meh process, or pulling moves that would make Isiah Thomas go "wtf?!" are the deals that will return their organization to the greatness that they once had (which for folks that were born before the sixties could have actually witnessed. And with this blind devotion (and for some, zealotry), they buy the jerseys, purchase the Leafs TV package, snap up tickets where the nosebleeds start at 115$ a seat for a regular season game, and have been doing for decades as the team, outside of a brief blip of respectability in the early 90's, have been absolute crap. By the fans though process, the owners never needed to bother putting a quality product to get asses in the seats, and they knew (and know) this all too well.Be it a grumpy old prick that would make the Phillies management of the early 20th cenutry jealous that he could get so many fans for so little effort, to the current owners that are the Ontario Teacher's Pension fund, they know there's no sense blowing tons of cash to bring a consistent winner, they've already got the fans following along, and with the current NHL brass they will never have to worry about competition, as another team stationed in the GTA will never happen, even thought it would be a money making machine.

The only way they will ever change is if fans of the team hold them accountable, and that will be a cold day in Hell.

EDIT: Or what LGO said.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

How does the thought process of Leaf fans directly affect the team's performance?

So you're saying that the fans buy Leaf gear simply b/c they think the team to be a contender?

It's not all about the gear. However add that to the continuous sold out sign for all home games now and into the foreseeable future and the Leafs have a situation unique in all professional sport. They don't have to put a winner on the ice, yet they remain one of the most profitable franchises in sport.

I can think of no other city where 43 years of futility would result in guaranteed sell outs. Especially at prices that may be top 5 in the league.

Many of us support a second NHL franchise in Toronto just to push the Leafs into becoming more competitive.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by RchW

Many of us support a second NHL franchise in Toronto just to push the Leafs into becoming more competitive.

Which barring a coup d'etat or the NHL taking the route of its predecessor the NHA, I cant' see ever happening. Not with solid markets like Kansas City around.

[Cooleyvol]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

They keep buying tickets and merchandise regardless of the team's performance. The club can put horrible losers onto the ice, and the arena will be packed regardless. The club is never punished financially for putting turkeys on the ice. And as long as the club is a highly profitable enterprise as it is, why would it really change? And with the salary cap, the club has its expenses limited, so it can make even more money than before.

Too many fans in this town are far too unrealistic about the prospects for the club each season.

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

Folks have been pouring cash in the coffers of the leaf owners with substandard return for over four decades, and yet the though process is one of that they always have a chance to win it all, that their team with every move for an over the hill player, meh process, or pulling moves that would make Isiah Thomas go "wtf?!" are the deals that will return their organization to the greatness that they once had (which for folks that were born before the sixties could have actually witnessed. And with this blind devotion (and for some, zealotry), they buy the jerseys, purchase the Leafs TV package, snap up tickets where the nosebleeds start at 115$ a seat for a regular season game, and have been doing for decades as the team, outside of a brief blip of respectability in the early 90's, have been absolute crap. By the fans though process, the owners never needed to bother putting a quality product to get asses in the seats, and they knew (and know) this all too well.Be it a grumpy old prick that would make the Phillies management of the early 20th cenutry jealous that he could get so many fans for so little effort, to the current owners that are the Ontario Teacher's Pension fund, they know there's no sense blowing tons of cash to bring a consistent winner, they've already got the fans following along, and with the current NHL brass they will never have to worry about competition, as another team stationed in the GTA will never happen, even thought it would be a money making machine.

The only way they will ever change is if fans of the team hold them accountable, and that will be a cold day in Hell.

EDIT: Or what LGO said.

Originally Posted by RchW

It's not all about the gear. However add that to the continuous sold out sign for all home games now and into the foreseeable future and the Leafs have a situation unique in all professional sport. They don't have to put a winner on the ice, yet they remain one of the most profitable franchises in sport.

I can think of no other city where 43 years of futility would result in guaranteed sell outs. Especially at prices that may be top 5 in the league.

Many of us support a second NHL franchise in Toronto just to push the Leafs into becoming more competitive.

Is it possible that the fans just love the Leafs? A true fan follows/supports his team no matter what. I'd think it could be much worse with regard to the teams' fans. Abandoning a team doesnt mean the team will take heed and put a better club on the field......ie Detroit Lions. Their fans don't sell out and I don't see mgt upgrading and seeing that increase in talent on the field.

How does coming to the games mean that the fans think the team is a contender?

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

Is it possible that the fans just love the Leafs? A true fan follows/supports his team no matter what. I'd think it could be much worse with regard to the teams' fans. Abandoning a team doesn't mean the team will take heed and put a better club on the field......ie Detroit Lions. Their fans don't sell out and I don't see mgt upgrading and seeing that increase in talent on the field.

Your Detroit Lions example is valid, but hurting the wallet of the owner when they don't bother to deliver a winning product is really the only weapon the fan has. Leaf fans have pretty much stated with their dollars that they endorse the losing this franchise has delivered upon time and again, or at least are deluding themselves to not see what it is.

How does coming to the games mean that the fans think the team is a contender?

It doesn't. That was in reference to fan reaction for moves made by the club being blown way out of proportion time and again. To give an example just from the last few years:

* having Brian Burke as the GM was to herald in a new era of dominance as he rebuilt the team in his own image,
* Kessel was supposed to be the second coming of Sidney Crosby (with the two draft picks he cost them meaningless, even if they'll most likely be top five in next years draft),

...predictions of being near the top of their division were commonplace, and of winning the cup.....well there were no published statements to that effect, but a few fans I've ran into have (and still believe) such predictions will bear fruit this year. Other predictions included:

* acquiring Raycroft from the Bruins(for first rounder Tuukka Rask),
* getting Toskala from the Sharks (for another first rounder),
* Ron Wilson as coach,
* Luke Schenn being the next Bobby Orr,
* spending first rounders on Owen Nolan and Brian Leetch

..were all heralded that they'd be moves that would vault them into the upper echelons of the league by the Leaf choir, while most outside were scratching their heads wondering what their GM was smoking. And these are just some examples from the last decade. There are many more just from the 2000's, and many more after that as you go through history that anywhere else, fans would have told management to sit and spin and stop supporting their stupid moves to ruin their team. Not in Toronto, at least not for the Leafs.

Maybe it's just something that you have to be surrounded by to wonder if the inmates are running the asylum. All three folks here (myself included) hail from what was once considered Leaf Country (Ontario) and have seen such silliness first hand, over and over again, year after year, decade after decade, with every year having the same refrain of how great the Leafs are going to be, that it's their year, and how every team in the league will bite their dust, with the exact opposite almost guaranteed to occur. And all the while they'll endorse it with wallets open and smiles on their faces, happy to follow their team over the cliff yet again.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by jbergey22

What makes you so sure they would do better? 1) Brodeur has been outplaying both of them on the season.

2) Would you bench Albert Pujols if he had an 0-4 game in the World Series?

You Canadians have an over reaction problem. It's one game and I would bet anyone even money that the winner of Russia/Canada wins the gold.

1) He's hardly been outplaying both of them. In fact, you'd really have to split hairs to find a difference between the three. Certainly Brodeur has been making more headlines because he's 37 and is nailing a bunch of career milestones, due to the fact that he's played more games than any goalie in history. Look at their respective ages and percentages of goaltending minutes played for their teams so far in a compressed NHL season:

Brodeur: (37 [38 on May 6]): 91.2%
Luongo: (30 [31 on Apr 4]): 81.6%
Fleury: (25 [26 next season]): 76.2%

If I'm a Devils fan I'm very concerned/alarmed by the fact that their backup goalie(s) is(are) merely being used for target practice in practice and not serving the purpose they are meant to serve: to give the #1 guy a breather, especially in a compressed schedule when the #1 guy is closer to 40 than 35. He's not young in goalie years anymore. The Canucks and Penguins seem to understand this with goalies that are 7 and 12 years younger respectively. Why not the Devils? Could it be that Marty is too stubborn for his own good? Every number 1 is, but over 90% in a compressed schedule at his age? Ugh.

Another reason to make the switch right now is that this is Luongo's home building and has been for 4 years including this one. He knows every carom, bounce, nook, and cranny that the place has to offer. In those four years the 'Nucks are 94-45-15 at home and 76-63-14 on the road. Obviously since we agree that a goalie is a very important part of any team's success, the man likes playing at "The Garage", or Canada Hockey Place, or whatever its temporary name is. I don't know if his family lives there, but I would imagine they do, given that the hockey season coincides almost exactly with the school year. It's the ultimate home ice advantage and a complete no brainer, unless you're a sucker for sentimentality.

Brodeur is the only starting goalie on the seven hockey powers (Cze: Vokoun (33), Fin: Kiprusoff (33), Rus: Nabokov (34), Slo: Halak (24), Swe: Lundqvist (27), USA: Miller (29)) who's on the wrong side of 35 and as noted before he's closer to 40. He also has the lowest save percentage (granted the stat has its flaws, but alas hockey is not baseball in terms of performance metrics) amongst the other six and Luongo so far this season. Time to make a switch or maybe time to "Cede The Podium".

2) This Pujols comparison is laughable. a) this is a one-off tournament, not a best of seven b) at 1B in MLB these days, there's Pujols and then there's everyone else. The man stands alone amongst his peers. Marty does not this year, in fact he's kind of in the middle, which is hard to see when he's setting career records every other game, but it's true and c) Albert Pujols is a 30 year old first baseman. Martin Brodeur is a 37 (soon to be 38) year old goalie. There is a huge difference.

Overreacting? No. Concerned? Yes. Not wanting to see a repeat of Turin (choosing grizzled vets over younger and possibly better players)? Yes. You're right it is only one non-elimination game. Doesn't stop people from going apegoof about it up here (I'm not one of them, because I'm fully aware that any one of 7 teams can win this thing) though. I would only bet even money that one of Canada, the Czech Republic, Finland, Russia, Slovakia, Sweden, or the USA (alphabetical order because it's too close to call) will win the gold if I were you. Cheers.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

Abandoning a team doesnt mean the team will take heed and put a better club on the field......ie Detroit Lions. Their fans don't sell out and I don't see mgt upgrading and seeing that increase in talent on the field.

The team is still profitable thanks to revenue sharing. According to Forbes, in 2008 the Lions had an operating profit of $18.5 million (27th in the league). So that mitigates to some extent the impact of fans staying home.

The thing to note is that if the fan always supports the home team no matter what, then what pressure is there really on the club to put a winner on the field/court/rink? It is a business, after all, and if there's plenty of profit to be had from a poor performer, other than pride, there's no reason to change the profit recipe.

[EMSoccerCoach]

I just know that after all the Own the Podium idiocy, this felt extra nice.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by EMSoccerCoach

I just know that after all the Own the Podium idiocy, this felt extra nice.

While I agree it was a silly (and shortsighted) policy, saying that it's extra nice because we wanted to actually improve our results is just bitter sounding.

[Vinny P.]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

When the catcher has a bad game, the team isn't guaranteed to lose. When the goalie has a bad game, your pretty much sunk.

Long answer: I respectfully disagree.

This:

I would argue that the catcher is most like the goalie in baseball. I would also argue that a good catcher, who knows how to make the proper pitch selection, and knows the lineup of the opposition, is just as, if not more, important than the pitcher.

Plus, the catcher does some pretty similar things that a goalie does.

was in response to someone saying they think the equivalent of a goalie in baseball would be the pitcher.

I merely responded that I think the catcher is rather more like the goalie in baseball, than the pitcher is. Not to mention, I say that, arguably, the catcher is probably more important than the pitcher. Except the pitcher gets all the glory.

I never said in there anywhere that I think that the catcher is like a goalie at all, but merely comparing the catcher to other positions in importance to team wins. Plus, the catcher has the job most like the goalie anyway, if any position in baseball did.

[Vinny P.]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

disagree.

You really think so? How is a catcher not just as important as a pitcher? While arguably, I would say they COULD be MORE important then a pitcher, I would think they are at least as important.

Teams with sucky catchers, who just don;t know what their role really involves will lose, even with the best ace of any staff of any league out on the mound.

The worst catchers won;t gel with their pitchers, which could really make winning tough, if not impossible.

[EMSoccerCoach]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

While I agree it was a silly (and shortsighted) policy, saying that it's extra nice because we wanted to actually improve our results is just bitter sounding.

No, your response is bitter sounding. It wasn't a simple comment about hoping to do better and improve, which nobody could have possibly had a problem with. The guy coming out and saying "we're going to own the podium" was arrogant and stupid and now, deservedly, embarrassing.

[canadiancreed]

Originally Posted by EMSoccerCoach

No, your response is bitter sounding.

Sure thing skippy.

Originally Posted by EMSoccerCoach

The guy coming out and saying "we're going to own the podium" was arrogant and stupid and now, deservedly, embarrassing.

I believe I was agreeing with you on that part, in my post above.

[EMSoccerCoach]

Originally Posted by canadiancreed

Sure thing skippy.

oooo, I love the cute little nickname. You Canucks are just the sweetest little things.

[actionjackson]

Believe it or not EMSoccerCoach, not all sweet little Canucks drank deeply from the Kool-Aid punch bowl. Spending more money to help amateur athletes with their training - excellent idea. Giving your 80 or so competing nations blackboard material to stoke the competitive fires - stooooopid (one "o" for each Olympic ring) idea. Talk about shooting yourself in the face. Quote of the day from local radio host Bob McCown (broadcasting during the games from Vancouver): "Own the Per Diem". Nice.

[Vinny P.]

Excellent! USA up 4-0 in the first period vs. Finland. Is this a medal game? If the USA pulls out with this win, are they guaranteed a medal?

Seriously, they are dominating the ice this year. Russia has been eliminated by Canada. I think the gold medal match WILL come down to the USA vs. Canada. I think this will be an even better match. The USA is hungry for gold, and Canada is hungry for revenge. I hope it happens. I am rooting for Canada to get to the gold medal match against us.

[Vinny P.]

Dola

5-0! This is the fourth goal that I have seen in the past 5 minutes, one after another, after another, after another, and after another in the past like 5 minutes.

OMG! 6-0!! This is ridiculous! Two goals in less than a minute. Happened literally as I was typing this out.