OOTP 11 - Interface navigation poll!

[Bluenoser]

I like the icons along the bottom. They are the most used for me.

As for the forward/back buttons, sorry but I don't understand the fuss.

1. If you're right handed, you still use your mouse with that hand. Moving the pointer to the left side of the page does not require you to reach across the computer.

2. If you move them to the right side, that means something else gets bumped to the left.

3. What would be nice would be if we could do forward/back with the mouse buttons the same as we can with a web page.

[silvam14]

It seems apparent to me from reading some posts here that maybe a stickied "Have you tried this?" thread with little known tips and tricks might be valuable here

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Tony M

This is the thing that Office 2007 uses - it uses a bit more vertical space than a menu but seems cleaner and more user friendly to me.

I even managed to convince the wife to stick with 2007 over 2003 and now she flies around in Word and Excel with it.

It took me awhile to get used to that in Excel 2007, but now that I'm used to it, I find it fairly convenient. I do feel sometimes, however, that it results in having to make an extra click or two to get to a particular function I want. Though that may also be because I really haven't bothered to learn any of the keyboard shortcuts (unlike in Photoshop, where I used to have a good number of those committed to memory).

If you commit keyboard shortcuts to memory, you can navigate a program far faster than you can by using the mouse.

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

I tried Office 2007 for a while and then went back to Office 2003. At least I can find everything now.

Programmers can get too cute with interfaces.

Excel 2007 had too many good improvements for me to pass up. The unlimited conditional formats, for example, are hugely useful for one particular set of data files I had been working on.

[Cras]

I am always using the icons on the bottom of the screen. Please do not remove those.

[Cooleyvol]

Originally Posted by BruceM

I like the icons along the bottom. They are the most used for me.

As for the forward/back buttons, sorry but I don't understand the fuss.

1. If you're right handed, you still use your mouse with that hand. Moving the pointer to the left side of the page does not require you to reach across the computer.

2. If you move them to the right side, that means something else gets bumped to the left.

3. What would be nice would be if we could do forward/back with the mouse buttons the same as we can with a web page.

The user that first requested the move to the right has a physical condition that makes it easier on him over there. That was his fuss.

[Curtis]

The forward/back buttons get by far the most use, but not as much as in Version 7. It seems to me that the two sets of buttons originally had different functions, but now they seem to both do the same thing.

Second most use comes from the 'Recent' dropdown, which is getting much more use since the forward/backs got merged, but always got used every time I open the game. It's absolutely indispensable when you do a lot of jumping back and forth between three or more teams or leagues.

I do on rare occasions use the bookmarks to jump directly to a page that's part of a submenu for some other page; I think I have two of those set up now. It's usefulness is radically curtailed by not being able to jump directly to specific reports — especially the minor league reports, where I practically live some days. Someone suggested repeatedly bookmarking the specific report I wanted, and eventually it would 'take', but I guess I don't have enough patience for that, because after half a dozen rapid-fire attempts it still sent me to the Reports menu page.

I've used the buttons at the bottom maybe six times in three years. It doesn't help that usually they're invisible off the bottom of the screen (which I've reported to Tech Support three times — apparently nothing can be done about it). The only good thing about them is that they keep more valuable things from the being the lowest items on the page and disappearing.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

The user that first requested the move to the right has a physical condition that makes it easier on him over there. That was his fuss.

I read that thank you, my point still stands.

[spitfire]

Originally Posted by Curtis

I do on rare occasions use the bookmarks to jump directly to a page that's part of a submenu for some other page; I think I have two of those set up now. It's usefulness is radically curtailed by not being able to jump directly to specific reports — especially the minor league reports, where I practically live some days. Someone suggested repeatedly bookmarking the specific report I wanted, and eventually it would 'take', but I guess I don't have enough patience for that, because after half a dozen rapid-fire attempts it still sent me to the Reports menu page.

That would have been me. Not sure that doing it quickly makes much difference. When my first attempt to bookmark the Minor League Report (for example) doesn't take (and it usually doesn't) I keep trying it at intervals (like after going to and from the report and visiting other screens in between). Eventually the thing gets bookmarked. Presumably there's some set of circumstances that causes the bookmark to eventually take, but I'll be darned if I've ever been able to figure out what those might be. I usually have four bookmarks set up .... Minor League System Report, Diabled List, Waivers & DFA, and Trading Block. The last three are easy, but marking a specific report is a pain. As the bookmarks for sub-reports like the MLSR eventually do register, it CAN be done, but the process seems unreasonably frustrating. Suggest that if Markus wants more people to use those bookmarks, he find a way to debug the process of setting them up so that whatever report screen you're trying to bookmark is the one you end up with!

[spitfire]

I use all of the options named in the poll. I use the bookmarks for easy access to certain screens like the Minor League System Report (the access is easy; setting UP the bookmark is a pain in the neck!!). The icons at the bottom of the screen are used a lot for visiting the pitching staff, lineup and front office screens (by the way, haven't played since the patch came out. Has the problem ever been fixed where you'd press the piching staff icon and be taken to the lineup screen instead, and vice versa? As with the bookmarks, it would be nice if the darned things worked the way they're supposed to!). When I'm checking on various players etc. I generally use the right mouse key to jump out of a screen, but the forward and back buttons have their use when I'm comparing the stats or ratings of two or more players. The "Recent" menu comes into general use when I remember that I was looking at something recently and want to go back to it. Again, useful for comparing players, among other things. I'd be sad to see any of these things removed from future versions, though I imagine with some counselling I could work through it! Sure would be nice if the bottom icons and bookmarks all functioned properly though ........

[fhomess]

Markus, you need to stop thinking of your game as a web browser and start thinking of it as an application. In the web, there's a ton of things you don't care about and so things like bookmarks are great because they let you jump just to the stuff you care about. Every web surfer is different, and no one can know which information may be more interesting to one customer over another.

In a game, all the available information is important to some degree, and you can predict with a high level of accuracy what information is going to be more important to the user. That information should be in buttons, menus, and shortcut keys. The other information should be accessible with just an extra click or two, going from more abstract to greater detail. While I think that the bookmarks are useful to get the F# keys configured, the GUI design should make this only useful for more obscure pages. A good GUI would require very little use of user customized shortcut keys because it'd be very easy to find what you're looking for with a click or two, and shortcut keys to the important stuff should be built in.

As for me, the only option I selected was the back/forward button, but even that's not accurate. It's really just the back button that I use. I use one icon on the bottom of my screen - the one to check my mailbox. None of the others are useful to me. I think the buttons at the bottom of the screen would be far more useful if they could be configured to have the buttons I cared about. I'll agree with those that say the Office 2007 ribbon was hard to learn, but I do like it a fair amount better than the old way now that I understand it. I think the lesson, from a GUI standpoint, is to look at standalone applications rather than web browsers.

[Corsairs]

Originally Posted by fhomess

Markus, you need to stop thinking of your game as a web browser and start thinking of it as an application. In the web, there's a ton of things you don't care about and so things like bookmarks are great because they let you jump just to the stuff you care about. Every web surfer is different, and no one can know which information may be more interesting to one customer over another.

In a game, all the available information is important to some degree, and you can predict with a high level of accuracy what information is going to be more important to the user. That information should be in buttons, menus, and shortcut keys. The other information should be accessible with just an extra click or two, going from more abstract to greater detail. While I think that the bookmarks are useful to get the F# keys configured, the GUI design should make this only useful for more obscure pages. A good GUI would require very little use of user customized shortcut keys because it'd be very easy to find what you're looking for with a click or two, and shortcut keys to the important stuff should be built in.

As for me, the only option I selected was the back/forward button, but even that's not accurate. It's really just the back button that I use. I use one icon on the bottom of my screen - the one to check my mailbox. None of the others are useful to me. I think the buttons at the bottom of the screen would be far more useful if they could be configured to have the buttons I cared about. I'll agree with those that say the Office 2007 ribbon was hard to learn, but I do like it a fair amount better than the old way now that I understand it. I think the lesson, from a GUI standpoint, is to look at standalone applications rather than web browsers.

I tend to agree with this sentiment. The back button at the top and the email button at the bottom are far and away my two most used buttons. There's probably room from GUI improvement, but I readily admit I'm design expert and will happily defer to those who know better.

[Raidergoo]

Originally Posted by blueturf

The poll let you select multiple options, so it could be that many use the bookmarks but only selected one option in the poll. I use bookmarks extensively, but I probably use the toolbar along the bottom much more.

I am wrong. You are right.

[exoverge]

Originally Posted by BruceM

I like the icons along the bottom. They are the most used for me.

3. What would be nice would be if we could do forward/back with the mouse buttons the same as we can with a web page.

This is something I would love to see.

[TSmith1969]

Seems to me that the main takeaway from this discussion is that everyone uses the interface in different ways. So perhaps a part of the customization would be to have an option to make features that you don't use disappear from the screen to reduce clutter. How about interface widgets, totally customizable--buttons left/right, bookmarks and icon buttons on/off--but with 3-4 preset templates for those who don't want to do all the setup themselves?

[conception]

I'm all for a re-design of the interface. While I work it very adeptly now and have grown to like it, I'd say it's about the hardest part of the OOTP learning curve and something that can scare a lot of newcomers away.

The one thing in my mind that I must implore you about- Please do not get rid of the ability to have bookmarks! It is obvious looking at the poll that a minority of OOTP users utilize this, but for those of us that do it is an incredible time-saving feature. Everytime I create a new universe or start working a new franchise, I spend a couple of minutes linking to all of the pages that I will use frequently- such as minor league and major league lineups and rotations, waivers/DFA and the disabled list, the personnel page, and things like that.

I guess if all these pages were accessible with literally one click for anywhere in OOTP I would be fine with doing away with the bookmark system. As it is, though, when a league gets very large and the older computers start to slow down a bit, it means a lot to be able to click a link to the page you need.

[TribeFanInNC]

Originally Posted by fhomess

Markus, you need to stop thinking of your game as a web browser and start thinking of it as an application. In the web, there's a ton of things you don't care about and so things like bookmarks are great because they let you jump just to the stuff you care about. Every web surfer is different, and no one can know which information may be more interesting to one customer over another.

In a game, all the available information is important to some degree, and you can predict with a high level of accuracy what information is going to be more important to the user. That information should be in buttons, menus, and shortcut keys. The other information should be accessible with just an extra click or two, going from more abstract to greater detail. While I think that the bookmarks are useful to get the F# keys configured, the GUI design should make this only useful for more obscure pages. A good GUI would require very little use of user customized shortcut keys because it'd be very easy to find what you're looking for with a click or two, and shortcut keys to the important stuff should be built in.

As for me, the only option I selected was the back/forward button, but even that's not accurate. It's really just the back button that I use. I use one icon on the bottom of my screen - the one to check my mailbox. None of the others are useful to me. I think the buttons at the bottom of the screen would be far more useful if they could be configured to have the buttons I cared about. I'll agree with those that say the Office 2007 ribbon was hard to learn, but I do like it a fair amount better than the old way now that I understand it. I think the lesson, from a GUI standpoint, is to look at standalone applications rather than web browsers.

Wow, this was amazingly insightful. You are right. I should never have to scroll forwards or backwards through player pages. All of the features I need should be like 2 clicks away from the main interface. Thanks fhomess. I hope Markus is reading.

[TribeFanInNC]

Originally Posted by TSmith1969

Seems to me that the main takeaway from this discussion is that everyone uses the interface in different ways.

My new take is that people shouldn't need different ways. A well designed interface does not need customization in an application where everybody is doing the same thing (managing a baseball team). I never spend time using Excel wishing I could get to Analysis Tools a different way. I want to get there in 1 menu selection and I can. I want easy ways to change decimal places and format cells and copy/paste/move fields - I can.

[silvam14]

Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC

My new take is that people shouldn't need different ways. A well designed interface does not need customization in an application where everybody is doing the same thing (managing a baseball team). I never spend time using Excel wishing I could get to Analysis Tools a different way. I want to get there in 1 menu selection and I can. I want easy ways to change decimal places and format cells and copy/paste/move fields - I can.

""

[BusterKing]

Originally Posted by Raidergoo

That's not what you asked. I use the forward/backward buttons the most, but, I have several bookmarks to obscure areas of OOTP that mean a lot to me.

Exactly. I selected the back/forth button for your poll but I also have several bookmarks.

[BusterKing]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Well, in our current design the toolbar at the bottom will disappear anyway, it is confusing to have navigation on several places of the screen (top + bottom). Instead we'll 'pimp' the top area to make it more useable.

How many times does it have to be said: "Don't take away features, many are liking them" even if they don't post on the forums about it.

Nothing is more annoying then finding that one of your favorite features has been removed from a new version of the game. Many still remember how much we lost in versions AFTER 6.5