Getting the AI to play as shrewdly as a human? - Page 4

deadringer · 12-01-2008, 02:01 PM

Slightly off topic but I just wanted to add a quick thank you to the Wolf. I started a universe that is stats only and I'm absolutely loving it. It is VERY challenging and for whatever reason the whole game "behaves" more realistic. It may be completely psychological, but the AI seems to act much more realistically in all it's moves. Plus the truly ridiculous trades and roster moves are much more hidden. I find the whole universe to be much, much more immersive.

For anyone wondering I went off the deep end on the approach. I turned off all the ratings for everything but for the the managers and staff (because otherwise you'd have no idea of quality). On the player's screen the positions the player has played are still visible, they just don't have a rating attached.

In an effort to make the whole thing more realistic (IMHO) I decided I would have to work with other people. I have my farm director (the AI) run the minors, my scouting department (the AI) pick my drafts, and I have the on field manager make all the offensive, defensive, and pitching strategies in game. I do make all the line up, pitching, and depth decisions, as well as all the in game substitutions and pitching changes and I play every game out.

koohead · 12-01-2008, 02:57 PM

Great read. thanks everyone.

One question I have is if there is a way to display only potential ratings, including the overall Actual/Potential score. I've found where to hide the actual ratings for things like contact and power and stuff, but the overall rating still gets displayed. anyway to make that be just the overall potential rating? I like leaving potentials there because I feel like that's what my scouting department is feeding me. its up to me (and the stats) to judge if this player is living up to that potential or not. I think playing with potentials is realistic as well since a team will would generally give a "prospect" (someone they drafted high or that their scouts thought highly of) a little more rope than someone that was rated lower right off the bat. just a thought.

The Wolf · 12-02-2008, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unoriginal Name

A couple other settings I was wondering about were do you use the scouting system? What about things like the waiver wire and the Rule 5 draft? What do you find are the best settings for trading preferences?

Those are all I can think of right now.

These are all personal choices and I have tried all of the settings. It's your game, play it your way.

The Wolf · 12-02-2008, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadringer

Slightly off topic but I just wanted to add a quick thank you to the Wolf. I started a universe that is stats only and I'm absolutely loving it. It is VERY challenging and for whatever reason the whole game "behaves" more realistic. It may be completely psychological, but the AI seems to act much more realistically in all it's moves. Plus the truly ridiculous trades and roster moves are much more hidden. I find the whole universe to be much, much more immersive.

I'm delighted that you like it too. For me it's the only way to play, and so much more immersive than the vanilla way that it's day and night.

PhillieFever · 12-02-2008, 10:30 PM

I have to say,after reading through this thread,I believe you have another convert Mr. The Wolf.Starting next season,I'm going stats only.

Afino · 12-02-2008, 10:55 PM

Myself as well.

Headed to my 5th championship in 6 years - I need a challenge without starting a new league.

Isura · 12-03-2008, 07:19 AM

I would convert if OOTP had more sabermetric stats. It also feels less realistic without ratings. Major league teams DO scout all players. I enjoy having both reference points but to each his own

conception · 12-03-2008, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isura

I would convert if OOTP had more sabermetric stats. It also feels less realistic without ratings. Major league teams DO scout all players. I enjoy having both reference points but to each his own

I'm with you on that, there needs to be some kind of reference point besides stats that can say what players should be good. In real life you can look at a player's body type and raw physical tools. OOTP doesn't show you any representation of that so there is no way to "scout" your players without getting ratings.

The Wolf · 12-03-2008, 09:20 AM

What I would like to see in version 10 is a few more tools to help the stats only player.

But I'm pretty happy as is. The game was a bit too easy, the AI seemed to make crazy moves, and the immersion factor wasn't what I would have liked it to be, so I changed things around, and I urge anyone with the same issues to give stats only a fair trial. You may not like it, but then again you may find yourself having a great time with it right along with me and Deadringer. What have you got to lose? An hour or so? Take a chance.

"It's your game, play it your way."

The Wolf · 12-03-2008, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conception

I'm with you on that, there needs to be some kind of reference point besides stats that can say what players should be good. In real life you can look at a player's body type and raw physical tools. OOTP doesn't show you any representation of that so there is no way to "scout" your players without getting ratings.

You can leave stars on for a crutch/set of training wheels.

But I say take the plunge. Join me and Deadringer in pulling your hair out trying to figure out - based just on his stats and history - if that kid at AAA is really that good now, or has he just been lucky? Has that aging starter lost it for good or is he in a slump? Did your first baseman lose some skills when he was hurt, or is he just in a slump, too? Pay your money and take your chances.

StyxNCa · 12-03-2008, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

You can leave stars on for a crutch/set of training wheels.

But I say take the plunge. Join me and Deadringer in pulling your hair out trying to figure out - based just on his stats and history - if that kid at AAA is really that good now, or has he just been lucky? Has that aging starter lost it for good or is he in a slump? Did your first baseman lose some skills when he was hurt, or is he just in a slump, too? Pay your money and take your chances.

How does this work in the draft where there are no stats to base anything on? I build my system strictly through the draft so that is an important issue to me.

Isura · 12-03-2008, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

How does this work in the draft where there are no stats to base anything on? I build my system strictly through the draft so that is an important issue to me.

I think feeder leagues have stats

PotatoPeeler · 12-03-2008, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

How does this work in the draft where there are no stats to base anything on? I build my system strictly through the draft so that is an important issue to me.

Yeah, set up a college and high school feeder league so they have at least a few stats. I haven't gotten to a draft yet but my picks are going to heavily depend on who my scout suggests.

84Hammy · 12-03-2008, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

How does this work in the draft where there are no stats to base anything on? I build my system strictly through the draft so that is an important issue to me.

I can't remember if these things are in this thread or on another recent thread, but for one, feeder leagues have stats and if you have the ratings potential screen up during the draft, you can click on a category and the list will be ordered the way your scout sees the players having most potential in that category. You can then click on the players at the top and see their highschool or college stats. The other thing that I do is read the scouting report. There is enough info there to go on. Also, I leave position ratings and speed ratings on. I might get rid of position ratings and just go by fielding stats, but I am not at all sure how I would get rid of the speed ratings.

Curtis · 12-03-2008, 11:47 AM

Position and speed ratings are the kinds of things you could easily determine in spring training or through the scouting combine/word of mouth, so I see no ethical issue with continuing to use them.

On the other hand, the personality factors would definitely have to go. You'd have to tell what you could from the morale 'happy face' and how well contract negotiations are going.

deadringer · 12-03-2008, 02:01 PM

In my stats only league I still use the text based scouting reports but with the AI's evals set so heavily towards current year's stats (I use Wolf's eval %'s) and with scouting turned on, they're still hit and miss enough to keep much of the challenge for me. I take them as suggestions of what a player may be capable of but I still look at what he's actually doing. It's kind of like the scouts tell me what tools a player has and how he plays tells me if he's been able to turn the raw tools into skills.

The other part of the challenge is working with the AI. Rather than looking at the AI as a whole I look at it as a lot of virtual people. I force myself to even the playing field by not acting as the team's God but as a member of the team's front office.

I always felt I could out draft the AI with ratings turned on and I always felt I was better at handling the development of prospects and their placement in the system at the different levels. Those two things alone make it impossible for the AI to compete. By having the virtual people on my staff handle the draft and the minors I handicap myself in the same way as the AI controlled teams are handicapped. I also have my AI manager make much of the in game decisions on strategies. This way I feel like I do in the real life jobs, making the most of the staff I have available.

I'm having more fun than ever with OOTP and that's saying a lot, since I've been having fun since version 4. I really find that with all the ratings hidden and the evals so slanted the AI actually appears to be doing it's job better.

If Markus and crew were to continue working on the text scouting reports and maybe even expand them to include weaknesses and strengths vs righty / lefty, I would be in heaven.

The Wolf · 12-03-2008, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadringer

I'm having more fun than ever with OOTP and that's saying a lot...I really find that with all the ratings hidden and the evals so slanted the AI actually appears to be doing it's job better.

If Markus and crew were to continue working on the text scouting reports and maybe even expand them to include weaknesses and strengths vs righty / lefty, I would be in heaven.

"

PotatoPeeler · 12-04-2008, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadringer

In my stats only league I still use the text based scouting reports but with the AI's evals set so heavily towards current year's stats (I use Wolf's eval %'s) and with scouting turned on, they're still hit and miss enough to keep much of the challenge for me. I take them as suggestions of what a player may be capable of but I still look at what he's actually doing. It's kind of like the scouts tell me what tools a player has and how he plays tells me if he's been able to turn the raw tools into skills.

The other part of the challenge is working with the AI. Rather than looking at the AI as a whole I look at it as a lot of virtual people. I force myself to even the playing field by not acting as the team's God but as a member of the team's front office.

I always felt I could out draft the AI with ratings turned on and I always felt I was better at handling the development of prospects and their placement in the system at the different levels. Those two things alone make it impossible for the AI to compete. By having the virtual people on my staff handle the draft and the minors I handicap myself in the same way as the AI controlled teams are handicapped. I also have my AI manager make much of the in game decisions on strategies. This way I feel like I do in the real life jobs, making the most of the staff I have available.

I'm having more fun than ever with OOTP and that's saying a lot, since I've been having fun since version 4. I really find that with all the ratings hidden and the evals so slanted the AI actually appears to be doing it's job better.

If Markus and crew were to continue working on the text scouting reports and maybe even expand them to include weaknesses and strengths vs righty / lefty, I would be in heaven.

Good post.

I find that the trades the AI offers me are much more realistic. For instance, I recently received a proposal offering me a 27-year-old starting pitcher for my stud 25-year-old SS. The pitcher's scouting report was good so I was considering taking the deal. However, when I looked for the pitcher's past stats, I found that he was a foreign free agent and only had one year of stats. So up went the red flag. I finally decided that I couldn't take the risk of giving up a great young SS with a proven track record for a guy that had a very limited history so I passed on the deal. I'm sure if I had ratings on and saw that I was getting a 5-star pitcher for a 4-star SS, I would have pulled the trigger in a heartbeat.

The Wolf · 12-04-2008, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PotatoPeeler

I'm sure if I had ratings on and saw that I was getting a 5-star pitcher for a 4-star SS, I would have pulled the trigger in a heartbeat.

This is what I mean about playing stats only making trading so much tougher. If you could have seen the ratings, as in vanilla OOTP, you'd know exactly which move was the best one. With stats only, well, you pays your money and you takes your chances, and you find out if you were right or wrong waaay down the road.

PotatoPeeler · 12-04-2008, 02:44 PM

Exactly. And for that reason, I've shortlisted both players just so I can check 5 years down the road and see if I made the correct decision.

12-01-2008, 02:57 PM	#62
koohead Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 3,211	Great read. thanks everyone. One question I have is if there is a way to display only potential ratings, including the overall Actual/Potential score. I've found where to hide the actual ratings for things like contact and power and stuff, but the overall rating still gets displayed. anyway to make that be just the overall potential rating? I like leaving potentials there because I feel like that's what my scouting department is feeding me. its up to me (and the stats) to judge if this player is living up to that potential or not. I think playing with potentials is realistic as well since a team will would generally give a "prospect" (someone they drafted high or that their scouts thought highly of) a little more rope than someone that was rated lower right off the bat. just a thought. __________________ GM - New Jersey Bears of the NPBL;

12-02-2008, 10:30 PM	#65
PhillieFever Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Elk Twp. NJ Posts: 6,763	I have to say,after reading through this thread,I believe you have another convert Mr. The Wolf.Starting next season,I'm going stats only. __________________ We're All Wednesday Aren't We? WAWAW

12-02-2008, 10:55 PM	#66
Afino Hall Of Famer Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 3,828	Myself as well. Headed to my 5th championship in 6 years - I need a challenge without starting a new league. __________________ GUBA: Moscow Enforcers

12-04-2008, 02:44 PM	#80
PotatoPeeler Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Rapid City, SD Posts: 3,639	Exactly. And for that reason, I've shortlisted both players just so I can check 5 years down the road and see if I made the correct decision. __________________ 培傑西 I have never taken a lesson on how to talk on TV in my life. - Tim McCarver Guns have only two enemies; rust and liberals. The world is a comedy to those that think; a tragedy to those that feel.

12-01-2008, 02:01 PM	#61
deadringer All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: La Grande, Oregon Posts: 994	Slightly off topic but I just wanted to add a quick thank you to the Wolf. I started a universe that is stats only and I'm absolutely loving it. It is VERY challenging and for whatever reason the whole game "behaves" more realistic. It may be completely psychological, but the AI seems to act much more realistically in all it's moves. Plus the truly ridiculous trades and roster moves are much more hidden. I find the whole universe to be much, much more immersive. For anyone wondering I went off the deep end on the approach. I turned off all the ratings for everything but for the the managers and staff (because otherwise you'd have no idea of quality). On the player's screen the positions the player has played are still visible, they just don't have a rating attached. In an effort to make the whole thing more realistic (IMHO) I decided I would have to work with other people. I have my farm director (the AI) run the minors, my scouting department (the AI) pick my drafts, and I have the on field manager make all the offensive, defensive, and pitching strategies in game. I do make all the line up, pitching, and depth decisions, as well as all the in game substitutions and pitching changes and I play every game out.

12-03-2008, 07:19 AM	#67
Isura Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 361	I would convert if OOTP had more sabermetric stats. It also feels less realistic without ratings. Major league teams DO scout all players. I enjoy having both reference points but to each his own

12-03-2008, 11:47 AM	#75
Curtis Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Watertown, New York Posts: 4,567	Position and speed ratings are the kinds of things you could easily determine in spring training or through the scouting combine/word of mouth, so I see no ethical issue with continuing to use them. On the other hand, the personality factors would definitely have to go. You'd have to tell what you could from the morale 'happy face' and how well contract negotiations are going.

12-03-2008, 02:01 PM	#76
deadringer All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: La Grande, Oregon Posts: 994	In my stats only league I still use the text based scouting reports but with the AI's evals set so heavily towards current year's stats (I use Wolf's eval %'s) and with scouting turned on, they're still hit and miss enough to keep much of the challenge for me. I take them as suggestions of what a player may be capable of but I still look at what he's actually doing. It's kind of like the scouts tell me what tools a player has and how he plays tells me if he's been able to turn the raw tools into skills. The other part of the challenge is working with the AI. Rather than looking at the AI as a whole I look at it as a lot of virtual people. I force myself to even the playing field by not acting as the team's God but as a member of the team's front office. I always felt I could out draft the AI with ratings turned on and I always felt I was better at handling the development of prospects and their placement in the system at the different levels. Those two things alone make it impossible for the AI to compete. By having the virtual people on my staff handle the draft and the minors I handicap myself in the same way as the AI controlled teams are handicapped. I also have my AI manager make much of the in game decisions on strategies. This way I feel like I do in the real life jobs, making the most of the staff I have available. I'm having more fun than ever with OOTP and that's saying a lot, since I've been having fun since version 4. I really find that with all the ratings hidden and the evals so slanted the AI actually appears to be doing it's job better. If Markus and crew were to continue working on the text scouting reports and maybe even expand them to include weaknesses and strengths vs righty / lefty, I would be in heaven.