Bonds better than Ruth? Pt. 2 - Page 4

KWhit · 10-15-2002, 09:54 AM

Oh yeah, and this little nugget:

After the Red Sox sold him to the Yankees, Ruth single-handedly outhomered the entire Boston team in 10 of the next 12 seasons.

Hmmmm...... That's pretty good, isn't it?

Chappy · 10-15-2002, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cooleyvol

Perfect player? Hell no. Ruth was not perfect, but can you bring me anyone else who could hit more HR than most other teams over a season and COULD HAVE been the league's best pitcher if he werent belting HR like he was?

Thought not.

Mike Hampton? Oh, wait, you said 'best' pitcher. Nevermind. Fact of the matter is, in this age of specialists we'll probably never see another two-way player outside of high school.

Also, regarding Barry's 'dropoff of power prior to 2000': Sure, he didn't hit as many homers but homers don't make a player 'great'. He was still in the top ten in MVP voting every year form 1990 to 1999 except for two seasons. That's pretty remarkable.

I think both players have numbers that speak for themselves. Both are dominant when compared to other hitters of their era. But outside of that, they cannot be compared. WAY to many differences in the leagues they played in.

lynchjm24 · 10-15-2002, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cooleyvol
All I said is that he's the best active player, and there is no way you can argue he's not in the top 3.

Lynch,
I think if you'll take the time to actually read what I've posted here, you'll find that I agreed he was most likely top 3 TODAY.

I never argued with that.

Read before you post.

If you can't find it, its on Page 2 of this topic. [/B][/QUOTE]

I know that you did, it was Steve that said he wasn't. I was just clarifiying what I said, not questioning what you said.

CBL-Commish · 10-15-2002, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KWhit
Oh yeah, and this little nugget:

After the Red Sox sold him to the Yankees, Ruth single-handedly outhomered the entire Boston team in 10 of the next 12 seasons.

Hmmmm...... That's pretty good, isn't it?

Ruth was obviously one of the best of all time. He's almost certainly the best. His combination of homers, walks, OPS, pitching, baserunning - the whole package - is almost impossible to match. Bonds is close, and he has a plausible argument for being the best. I'm not disputing that .

But I do think Ruth's accomplishments have been a little overstated by his proponents. Yes, he often outhomered other teams. Yes, he broke the HR record by 30-some homers one year. But he just paved the way; he just proved this could be done. Within a few years Hornsby, Gehrig, Foxx, and others had years nearly as good as Ruth. By the 1930s 50 HRs was a typical league-leading total, not some monumental accomplishment that would never be duplicated. Wagner, Cobb, Jackson, Lajoie, and others had years in the same neighborhood as Ruth's best, just without the homers. Ok, so not many of these guys could pitch, too...

Yes, Ruth was probably the best. But the constest isn't Ruth is a 10 and the next best guy is a 6. It's more like Ruth is a 10, Wagner is a 9.6, Bonds a 9.4, etc., etc...

kingfc22 · 10-15-2002, 05:48 PM

Ruth pitched because there wasn't a specialist for every single position like their is today. Once a good pitcher hits college, he rarely gets a chance to swing the bat today. So is Cy Young the best pitcher ever. He has the most wins?? People are forgetting that modern day baseball is 360 degrees different than when Ruth played. Pitchers who threw complete games all the time. Hell, Denny McClain won 36 games in a year. Nobody is gonna match that, but does that mean today's pitchers are not as good as he was. No, it just means that it's a different ballgame today. That's all. And for those who say Bonds didn't do much before 2000 is riduclous because he was stealing bases and winning gold gloves and now he has become a much more complete player: 73 homers even though he was walked 170 something times and batting .370 and a new OBP record.

Carplos · 10-15-2002, 07:51 PM

Althought arguments like this are fun, they get kinda redundant.. I actually don't bother to compare Bonds to Ruth or to Williams or to Mays, etc, for many reasons. Different eras, rule changes, racism in baseball, etc...

I said in another thread a while back, it's funny how we argue about whether Bonds is #1, #2, etc, etc, even if he was as low 31 or 100, that's still pretty damn impressive considering how many people have played the game.

KWhit · 10-16-2002, 10:03 AM

Oh yeah, and Ruth didn't take steroids.

Stirring the pot.

Carplos · 10-16-2002, 01:10 PM

Were steroids even around then? I have no clue when they surfaced...

CBL-Commish · 10-16-2002, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Carplos
Were steroids even around then? I have no clue when they surfaced...

Doubt it, but wasn't Ruth a frequent user of the #1 illegal drug of the 1920s - Alcohol.

Andro and creatine are legal now... booze wasn't then. Shouldn't that count for something?

KWhit · 10-16-2002, 02:24 PM

I don't think that alcohol is a performance-inhancing drug.

So no, it shouldn't count for anything.

JML · 10-16-2002, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KWhit
I don't think that alcohol is a performance-inhancing drug.

So no, it shouldn't count for anything.

I think it was Shakespeare who said something to the effect of "alcohol raises the desire, lowers the ability to perform."

I don't think he was talking about playing baseball, but still...

KWhit · 10-16-2002, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JML
I think it was Shakespeare who said something to the effect of "alcohol raises the desire, lowers the ability to perform."

I don't think he was talking about playing baseball, but still...

That was indeed the Bard. From Macbeth, I believe (my personal favorite).

twins15 · 10-16-2002, 06:04 PM

Also though, Ruth didn't have much speed. Bonds is closing in on tghe 500-500 club. He would be the only member. He had 484 steals before the year. He has the best combination of speed and power ever.

Jason Moyer · 10-16-2002, 09:19 PM

Twins15 earns 5 bonus points for that correct observation.

5 more if you can name the 2nd greatest power/speed combo ever. Hint: He's less liked than Bonds.

Jason

twins15 · 10-16-2002, 09:36 PM

http://baseball-reference.com/leader...d_career.shtml

It is Rickey Henderson.

Carplos · 10-17-2002, 12:20 AM

Andro, Creatine, etc, etc are just as legal to enhance your game as practicing, working out, etc... I'm not saying they're the same thing, just saying.

Ruth does something illegal, it's ok, but if Bonds is only using creatine, he still gets bashed..

It's still funny that KGJ made the All Century Team and Bonds didn't.

darkhorse · 10-17-2002, 01:00 AM

What illegal act by Ruth are you referring to?

Cooleyvol · 10-17-2002, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jason Moyer
Twins15 earns 5 bonus points for that correct observation.

5 more if you can name the 2nd greatest power/speed combo ever. Hint: He's less liked than Bonds.

Jason

Dave Kingman?

BrewedCrew · 10-17-2002, 01:25 PM

yes....

JML · 10-17-2002, 01:28 PM

Kingman was like greased lightening, wasn't he?

I have to bring up my favorite Mark Grace quote:

When a reporter asked Grace what his secret was to amassing the most doubles in the 90's, he replied:

"I credit my ability to turn a triple into a double."

10-15-2002, 09:54 AM	#61
KWhit Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 413	Oh yeah, and this little nugget: After the Red Sox sold him to the Yankees, Ruth single-handedly outhomered the entire Boston team in 10 of the next 12 seasons. Hmmmm...... That's pretty good, isn't it? __________________

10-15-2002, 05:48 PM	#65
kingfc22 All Star Reserve Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Fremont, CA Posts: 651	Ruth pitched because there wasn't a specialist for every single position like their is today. Once a good pitcher hits college, he rarely gets a chance to swing the bat today. So is Cy Young the best pitcher ever. He has the most wins?? People are forgetting that modern day baseball is 360 degrees different than when Ruth played. Pitchers who threw complete games all the time. Hell, Denny McClain won 36 games in a year. Nobody is gonna match that, but does that mean today's pitchers are not as good as he was. No, it just means that it's a different ballgame today. That's all. And for those who say Bonds didn't do much before 2000 is riduclous because he was stealing bases and winning gold gloves and now he has become a much more complete player: 73 homers even though he was walked 170 something times and batting .370 and a new OBP record. __________________ GO GIANTS GO NINERS GO LAKERS GO BLUE CUBL - Red Earth Firebirds 2000 CL Central Champs NABL - Washington Senators now Buffalo Bandits

10-16-2002, 02:24 PM	#70
KWhit Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 413	I don't think that alcohol is a performance-inhancing drug. So no, it shouldn't count for anything. __________________

10-16-2002, 06:04 PM	#73
twins15 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Area 51 Posts: 4,792	Also though, Ruth didn't have much speed. Bonds is closing in on tghe 500-500 club. He would be the only member. He had 484 steals before the year. He has the best combination of speed and power ever. __________________ "Ah man we're just hungry man" - Dovonte Edwards Bismarck Boy Scouts of the OTBL - league yes-man Ross Gload at baseball-reference.com Book Quotes and Book Lists

10-16-2002, 09:19 PM	#74
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,109	Twins15 earns 5 bonus points for that correct observation. 5 more if you can name the 2nd greatest power/speed combo ever. Hint: He's less liked than Bonds. Jason __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

10-15-2002, 07:51 PM	#66
Carplos Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,902 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	Althought arguments like this are fun, they get kinda redundant.. I actually don't bother to compare Bonds to Ruth or to Williams or to Mays, etc, for many reasons. Different eras, rule changes, racism in baseball, etc... I said in another thread a while back, it's funny how we argue about whether Bonds is #1, #2, etc, etc, even if he was as low 31 or 100, that's still pretty damn impressive considering how many people have played the game.

10-16-2002, 10:03 AM	#67
KWhit Major Leagues Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 413	Oh yeah, and Ruth didn't take steroids. Stirring the pot.

10-16-2002, 01:10 PM	#68
Carplos Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,902 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	Were steroids even around then? I have no clue when they surfaced...

10-16-2002, 09:36 PM	#75
twins15 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Area 51 Posts: 4,792	http://baseball-reference.com/leader...d_career.shtml It is Rickey Henderson. __________________ "Ah man we're just hungry man" - Dovonte Edwards Bismarck Boy Scouts of the OTBL - league yes-man Ross Gload at baseball-reference.com Book Quotes and Book Lists

10-17-2002, 12:20 AM	#76
Carplos Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Idaho Posts: 2,902 Infractions: 1/0 (0)	Andro, Creatine, etc, etc are just as legal to enhance your game as practicing, working out, etc... I'm not saying they're the same thing, just saying. Ruth does something illegal, it's ok, but if Bonds is only using creatine, he still gets bashed.. It's still funny that KGJ made the All Century Team and Bonds didn't.

10-17-2002, 01:00 AM	#77
darkhorse Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Location: fort worth, tx Posts: 10,850	What illegal act by Ruth are you referring to? __________________ "The Human Torch was denied a bank loan."

10-17-2002, 01:25 PM	#79
BrewedCrew Major Leagues Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Minnesota Posts: 414	yes.... __________________

10-17-2002, 01:28 PM	#80
JML Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: The act or process of locating. Posts: 2,154	Kingman was like greased lightening, wasn't he? I have to bring up my favorite Mark Grace quote: When a reporter asked Grace what his secret was to amassing the most doubles in the 90's, he replied: "I credit my ability to turn a triple into a double."