Why the Silence? - Page 4

HolyCow98 · 07-31-2006, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfgiants88

I think it's possible to have elements of both, and I am hopeful for that.

I think that is a must....but I have faith that is the goal from Markus and Co.

Bonedwarf · 07-31-2006, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D Love

Have the complaints and general postings dropped because (a) 1.0.2 really addressed all of the significant issues people had (or at least those that remain are now clearly 2007 ideas and not likely to be fixed in 2006) or (b) people know that Marc and Markus are on vacation or otherwise busy, so they don't bother posting if they don't think they'll get an "official" response.

Most likely people are tired of being shouted down, and realise that they're going to be ignored anyway. Why bother when you've got 50 acolytes waiting to execute you for daring to defame the holy ones?

Curious to know just how many customers SI and the folk on this board have succeeded in losing with their attitudes.

Hellion9 · 07-31-2006, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonedwarf

Most likely people are tired of being shouted down, and realise that they're going to be ignored anyway. Why bother when you've got 50 acolytes waiting to execute you for daring to defame the holy ones?

Curious to know just how many customers SI and the folk on this board have succeeded in losing with their attitudes.

Of course, I have seen a fair amount of shouting on both sides and there have certainly been a great number of people have engaging in flame wars, but is it entirely just to say SI/Markus have not listened to people? They may be unable/unwilling to implement everyone's desires, but I would definately say they have done a fair job of gathering and responding to feedback.

I apologize, in advance, if this seems like I am "shouting you down" as that is not my intent - I do think, however, that SI have done a good job trying to ensure people are heard and many of the fanbase have done so as well. It is unfortunate that your recent experiences appear to have been marred by the actions of some, but I do not think everyone who enjoys and defends the game is an "acolyte". Cheers!

GLFTF

Edit: fixed typo and added a cheery salutation

The Wolf · 07-31-2006, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonedwarf

Most likely people are tired of being shouted down, and realise that they're going to be ignored anyway. Why bother when you've got 50 acolytes waiting to execute you for daring to defame the holy ones?

Exactly. The fanboy quotient here is incredible.

The Wolf · 07-31-2006, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfgiants88

There is no need to fracture the community into two distinct camps.

A disproportionate amount of the people who are dissasatisfied with V2006 start their posts with "I have been playing since OOTP3." It makes no business sense to leave your most loyal customers in the dust, especially since it wouldn't take much effort to assuage their concerns.

This is the fundamental premise of my complaints. The fantasy half of the existing community were catered to and the historical half were essentially ignored. IMO that's not smart and it's not good business.

Hellion9 · 07-31-2006, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Exactly. The fanboy quotient here is incredible.

To be fair, however, the "the game is a disaster, sort it out si" quotient is relatively high as well. At some point I suppose both sides feel the other is simply stating precisely the same things over and over and over again. Perhaps everyone (those who despise and those that adore) the game are no longer capable of anything short of venom filled diatribe.

Ah well. Perhaps we should all agree to disagree.

Cheers!

Zitofan75 · 07-31-2006, 06:35 PM

How about, it's the middle of summer and people are on vacation? Just got back from one myself. Plus, maybe people are burnt out with the board. Some of the posts on here are interesting, some amusing, and some insightful but generally it doesn't much matter or affect my feelings for the game.

D Love · 07-31-2006, 07:55 PM

Best reason I've seen so far. Then again, I guess there's really no "news" going on. For the last 2 years, there's been the anticipation of something new coming, whether it be OOTP2006 news, OOTP2006 itself or the OOTP2006 patches. Suddenly, we're in this space where OOTP2007 itself isn't so exciting since it won't have the novelty factor that OOTP2006 promised (and delivered).

I just wish I wasn't working so much so I could play OOTP2006 more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zitofan75

How about, it's the middle of summer and people are on vacation? Just got back from one myself. Plus, maybe people are burnt out with the board. Some of the posts on here are interesting, some amusing, and some insightful but generally it doesn't much matter or affect my feelings for the game.

Le Grande Orange · 07-31-2006, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Exactly. The fanboy quotient here is incredible.

Or, conversely, the doomsayer quotient here is incredible.

Seriously, throwing out terms such as you did is pointless, and ultimately irrelevant.

If you got a valid criticism, then voice it in a well-constructed manner, and attention will be paid to it. That doesn't mean your issue is going to get instantly corrected or handled to your satisfaction, but it does mean a well-written critique of a feature or aspect to the game will get better reception.

There is also a "campaign" aspect to things. If you have a particular pet item you want to see included, you have to campaign for it. By that I mean you need to demonstrate, with well-thought out and well-supported posts, why that feature or idea is important and why it would be a worthwhile inclusion. I can guarantee you that if you make a solid case for it, it has a good chance of being adopted by Markus. I speak from first-hand knowledge here, because there are at least two items in the game which I campaigned for over the years. It took some time, but eventually they were adopted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

The fantasy half of the existing community were catered to and the historical half were essentially ignored.

Sorry, but that's simply false. I know about this first-hand as well.

There are plenty of new features for historical simmers in the game which did not exist in prior versions. Granted, perhaps these new features don't appeal to you, but that's an entirely different matter from saying historical simmers were ignored.

I know that Tiger Fan would greatly beg to differ on this idea that "historical simmers were ignored" argument that gets raised every so often...

Cowboys3356 · 07-31-2006, 09:37 PM

I stopped posting because I have just gone back to playing OOTP 6.51. OOTP2006 is fine and everything but it just isn't a game I enjoy so I guess there is no reason to complain about it, just play something that I like. Life is to short for b$tching and wh$ning all the time!

ashantewarrier · 07-31-2006, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowboys3356

I stopped posting because I have just gone back to playing OOTP 6.51. OOTP2006 is fine and everything but it just isn't a game I enjoy so I guess there is no reason to complain about it, just play something that I like. Life is to short for b$tching and wh$ning all the time!

Amen.

crackpott · 07-31-2006, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowboys3356

I stopped posting because I have just gone back to playing OOTP 6.51. OOTP2006 is fine and everything but it just isn't a game I enjoy so I guess there is no reason to complain about it, just play something that I like. Life is to short for b$tching and wh$ning all the time!

I just gave up on trying to get fixed the infuriating "feature" that makes the game unplayable for me. I'd go back to 6.5 too, but... I have a short attention span and I played out that game long ago.

The Wolf · 07-31-2006, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

If you got a valid criticism, then voice it in a well-constructed manner, and attention will be paid to it. That doesn't mean your issue is going to get instantly corrected or handled to your satisfaction, but it does mean a well-written critique of a feature or aspect to the game will get better reception.

Bull. You make a complaint here, even a valid one, even a civilly-presented valid one, and the fanboys attack. By the way, this is a recursive argument again - we point out that there is a problem here with fanboys denying that there are problems and hassling game critics and trying to silence them and look what just happened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

There is also a "campaign" aspect to things. If you have a particular pet item you want to see included, you have to campaign for it.

If we have to campaign for equality for historical simmers then this game is doomed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Sorry, but that's simply false.

Sorry, but you are simply wrong again.

See http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=126963 for the lengthy laundry list of missing or neglected historical features.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

There are plenty of new features for historical simmers in the game which did not exist in prior versions.

Only tiny things. The important things were left out. The game went to a world fantasy baseball orientation and historical gamers got next to nothing. Mogul and PureSim have more historical features these days, and that's just wrong.

Carplos · 08-01-2006, 12:53 AM

Quote:

if something as clean and simple as stars is added.

Such as numerical (and color coded) potential and overall ratings visible on any screen by using the "default" view?

The Wolf · 08-01-2006, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carplos

Such as numerical (and color coded) potential and overall ratings visible on any screen by using the "default" view?

A lot of people simply don't like the 20-80 ratings and want starts back as an option. It's this simple, they like the stars and they miss them. Most of all they really don't need you telling them that they shouldn't be asking for what they want and miss.

Criticism should not be silenced. People should not be told that they shouldn't ask for what they want.

Le Grande Orange · 08-01-2006, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Bull. You make a complaint here, even a valid one, even a civilly-presented valid one, and the fanboys attack.

No, I'd say if you make a complaint, you're attacked. Throw out terms like "fanboy" in every other post, and you shouldn't be surprised that it happens. There have already been links posted to threads where problems or complaints were made and listened to.

If you yourself aren't being heard, then it's time to reassess your posting style, since your method of delivering your message obviously isn't working.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

By the way, this is a recursive argument again - we point out that there is a problem here with fanboys denying that there are problems and hassling game critics and trying to silence them and look what just happened.

Should I read the above to mean that you're now calling me a fanboy because I dared to challenge you on your constant use of that tired, meaningless cliché of a term?

If so, that is pretty darn hilarious, and I'd almost call it a paranoid reaction on your part. But perhaps I am reading your comment wrong, so I'll reserve judgement for the time being.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

See http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...d.php?t=126963 for the lengthy laundry list of missing or neglected historical features.

Hmmm, let me get this straight, because the game doesn't include that massive laundry list of items it means that historical simmers were ignored?

Remember, you're using the word ignored. Most would take that to mean given no consideration or thought at all.

But considering the features that are there for historical simmers which weren't there before, use of the word "ignore" is incorrect and inaccurate. Now, if you had said "historical simmers weren't given the same number of new features that fictional simmers were" that would be something different. But that's not what you said.

Remember what I mentioned earlier about the way you are delivering your message? Improper use of the word "ignore" is a perfect example of this. It overinflates your case to the point of hyperbole; had you said instead you are disappointed that more new features for historical simmers weren't included, then you would have made your argument accurately and to the point.

Heck, if you had said, "I feel like historical simmers have been ignored" I wouldn't have found it particularly bothersome.

But if you make statements that purport to claim a widescale truth, rather than reflect your personal opinion, then yes, I am going to take issue with it. Language matters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

If we have to campaign for equality for historical simmers then this game is doomed.

Everyone's got their own personal list of things they want to see in the game. I, for one, would like to see more support for 19th century baseball, and more inclusion of past major league rules, such as the early-season roster expansion that was a part of MLB roster rules for a long time.

If you want it included, you A) have to mention it, and B) make a good case that it's a worthwhile inclusion over other ideas being suggested.

Not sure why you find justifying your ideas as such a burden...

Le Grande Orange · 08-01-2006, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Wolf

A lot of people simply don't like the 20-80 ratings and want starts back as an option. It's this simple, they like the stars and they miss them... Criticism should not be silenced. People should not be told that they shouldn't ask for what they want.

And if Markus posts saying that he never liked the stars, is glad that they are gone, and feels players are better served with the new system, what do you say then?

Do you still say you are ignored? Or do you accept that there is a difference in design philosophy and that perhaps things are going to be done differently now?

sfgiants88 · 08-01-2006, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carplos

Such as numerical (and color coded) potential and overall ratings visible on any screen by using the "default" view?

No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No NO

To me, they are NOT the same.

Visual symbols are much more appealing than rows of numbers, TO ME.

Charts are more appealing than spreadsheets, TO ME.

Stars are superior to numerical ratings, TO ME.

Stars are easier to newer players to understand as well.

Some people may be numbers based, but an equal amount of others are visually based.

Please, could you stop nitpitcking?

sfgiants88 · 08-01-2006, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

And if Markus posts saying that he never liked the stars, is glad that they are gone, and feels players are better served with the new system, what do you say then?

Do you still say you are ignored? Or do you accept that there is a difference in design philosophy and that perhaps things are going to be done differently now?

Then I would hope he would have at least had to the chance to look over this poll.

The majority of people either believe stars should be included or at least made an option.

It is unfortunate that the thread was first moved to the Suggestions Forum and then subsequently locked. I wish more people would have had the chance to vote.

fantom1979 · 08-01-2006, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sfgiants88

No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No No NO

To me, they are NOT the same.

Visual symbols are much more appealing than rows of numbers, TO ME.

Charts are more appealing than spreadsheets, TO ME.

Stars are superior to numerical ratings, TO ME.

Stars are easier to newer players to understand as well.

Some people may be numbers based, but an equal amount of others are visually based.

Now get off my back and stop telling me what I should like better. Sheesh.

I will in no way tell you what you should prefer, but the creator of this game seems to prefer the new overall/potiental ratings to stars. I would venture a guess that stars will not make it into this version, if ever at all. It seems that patch 3 will only be released if there is a need for it for bugs, I doubt that many new (or old) features will be included.

I personally do not care either way about the stars, I personally do not see the big appeal for them. I would much rather see Markus' time spent on something like the aging curve or full expansion.

If he has time to throw in stars, I am all for it, just to end the thread after thread about it.

07-31-2006, 06:35 PM	#67
Zitofan75 All Star Starter Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: California Posts: 1,413	How about, it's the middle of summer and people are on vacation? Just got back from one myself. Plus, maybe people are burnt out with the board. Some of the posts on here are interesting, some amusing, and some insightful but generally it doesn't much matter or affect my feelings for the game.

07-31-2006, 09:37 PM	#70
Cowboys3356 All Star Starter Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,571	I stopped posting because I have just gone back to playing OOTP 6.51. OOTP2006 is fine and everything but it just isn't a game I enjoy so I guess there is no reason to complain about it, just play something that I like. Life is to short for b$tching and wh$ning all the time!