VOTE: Time Warp HOF Ballot 1966

[jdw]

Originally Posted by marc

Ahh, forgot about the missing early histories. Regardless, I find it hard to believe that anyone above 2800 hits is out of the Hall of Fame, though correct me if I'm wrong.

You would be wrong.

2800 hits in TWB really isn't much of anything. At least 37 players have done it. Donny Engel, anyone?

Tito Jr. wasn't a great player, nor really even close to it. He was a good player, and a very good one at his best. But no one ever thought he was a great player, either as a 3B or a 1B. Among peers, he never was considered in the class of Luther Ormiston, Jimmy Dunkel or Maurice Misisca when they were at their best. He wasn't a good fielder... okay, I'll be honest - he wasn't even an "average" one. He was below average, but versatile enough to play both 1B and 3B, and had the "team player" rep of being willing to move where the team needed him to play. But the moves were to get offense in the lineup.

I like Tito Jr. quite a bit. I doubt anyone other than Cards Frank was a bigger fan of his back when he was actually playing... since no one else seemed to even pay attention to him existing. We pretty much were the only folks who talked about him. But he isn't worthy of the HOF.


John

[jdw]

Originally Posted by marc

I think he compares favorably to:

Ogden Wing

Just to name a few.

Really?



Wing's OPS Leaderboards:
1948-3-.959
1949-3-.960
1951-3-.971
1952-7-.868
1953-1-.993

Tito Jr's OPS Leaderboards:
1940-9-.825
1950-10-.892

I use that simply as a quick and dirty. But pretty much anyone who followed the league in the late 40's and early 50s knows that Wing was one of the three best players in the NL. Wing, Chaucer and Howard. They were the great players in the period.

Tito wasn't even a great player, let alone one of the great.

Tito was Al Oliver... except with a lot better attitude. Good BA, mid-range power, indifferent to the BB. His SLG and OBP weren't anything to write home about.

Wing?

Hit for average:

Batting Average
1948-4-.333
1949-3-.348
1950-4-.327
1951-1-.361
1952-6-.312
1953-1-.358

Took walks:

Walks
1947-8-85
1948-3-99
1950-6-99
1951-6-97
1952-5-82
1953-3-84
1954-6-84
1956-9-80

Got on base:

On-Base Pct
1948-2-.431
1949-3-.417
1950-1-.423
1951-1-.455
1952-5-.396
1953-2-.441
1954-7-.389

Hit for *more* power, with a broadbase of 2B, 3B and HR along with that high BA to give him very good SLG:

Slugging Pct
1946-9-.476
1948-8-.529
1949-4-.543
1951-4-.516
1952-9-.472
1953-4-.552

All told, it put runs on the board:

XR
1946-6-99.5
1948-1-126.7
1949-2-121.0
1950-3-116.0
1951-1-120.5
1952-1-105.1
1953-3-115.5
1955-10-97.8

Three times leading the NL, and Top 3 every season between 1948-53.

Tito *never* finished in the Top 10 in XR.

Wing was a great player at his peak. And it wasn't a short peak.

Tito was a very good player at his peak. That's it.

Tito doesn't compare favorably with Ogden Wing.

If you don't believe me, drag Cards Frank into here. He'll tell you that Tito might be his favorite player ever, but he'll also tell you that Ogden was the best player on those Cards teams, and behind him would come Dunk and Grady once he hit his stride. Tito was back in the pack with guys like Cook.


John

[jdw]

Originally Posted by marc

I think he compares favorably to:

Dave Arkless

Just to name a few.

They aren't remotely close.

Arkless is one of the greatest defensive CF in league history.

Tito Jr. was a below average fielding 1B/3B.

Tito Jr. barely cracked the low end of the OPS Top 10 twice in his career.

Arkless went 4-2-3 in OPS while the Cubs were winning three straight pennans from 1936-38. He also at 4th in 1929, 3rd in 1931 and 10th in 1935.

Tito Jr. his .314, but hit for far less HR power and didn't have remotely close to the same eye as Arkless - the Red Fox peppered the HR and BB leaderboard for a decade, including being #4 and #8 in them in his last year before heading off to the war and never returning to the game.

Arkless was a terrific multidimensional talent - he hit for a decent average, hit for outstanding power in the era, had a very good eye, and was an exceptional defensive player at a key position. He also was a key player on a great team.

Tito was a very good supporting player. Paul O'Neil. Arkless was Benie Williams level... except better.


John

[Matt from TN]

Originally Posted by jdw

Open and closed in three days. *sigh*

Some of us don't venture over here much anymore.

Once I get 20+ votes, I'm ready to close because that's what we always get & that usually means everyone who's interested has voted. That's also why I send out the TWB-wide email about the ballot being up. Sorry you missed the vote though. I didn't realize because I usually hold it open for you.

[tward13]

Some of us do, just to check for things like this.

[jdw]

Originally Posted by Matt from TN

I didn't realize because I usually hold it open for you.

Probably no point to in the future. I really need to tap out of the BWAA side. All I do is come over here and each year see people who don't understand where guys like Howard, Chaucer and Wing fit into the league. Or people call Luther a one dimensional player, which I can only take as a failure to even look at his record and leaderboad placements.

No good comes of it other than me getting angry, stamping my fist, and annoying people.


John

[haggis007]

Originally Posted by Matt from TN

Once I get 20+ votes, I'm ready to close because that's what we always get & that usually means everyone who's interested has voted. That's also why I send out the TWB-wide email about the ballot being up. Sorry you missed the vote though. I didn't realize because I usually hold it open for you.

I missed this one, too--I gotta have you change my email address--I never use the Yahoo email anymore and that's the only time I come to the big board.

I would have voted for:

Andrew (would this have put him over?)
Valcarcel
Misisca
Ormiston
Fellner
Stell

[Matt from TN]

Originally Posted by haggis007

Andrew (would this have put him over?)

No. With your and John's vote he would've been at 70%.

However, your vote for Valcarcel would've kept him from falling off the ballot

PM me your preferred email addy on the TWB forums.