Two-Time Gold Glove Winner Derek Jeter - Page 4

Sublimity · 11-02-2005, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davey Eckstein

This thread is funny.

Do you have any stats to back that up? Or are you just foolishly believing what your eyes tell you?

Davey Eckstein · 11-02-2005, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sublimity

Do you have any stats to back that up? Or are you just foolishly believing what your eyes tell you?

listen ive watched this thread since da start and my eyes tell me its funny so b quiet u

Hotblack Desiato · 11-02-2005, 06:03 PM

On ESPN.com, 68% of fan voters say Jeter is not the best shortstop in the AL. I'm very surprised. It's even 50/50 in NY/NJ. I didn't realise the average fan was as aware of his overrating.

Luis_Rivera · 11-02-2005, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splitter24

The main problem with the Win Shares system for a catcher's defense is how it rates any catcher who suits up for the Red Sox. Two of the main cogs of the system for catchers are non-strikeout putouts (plays at the plate and pop-ups) and non-stolen base attempt assists (fielding bunts and dribblers). Half of a Red Sox catcher's games are played in Fenway Park which has the smallest foul territory in baseball. And, because of the Red Sox offense, fewer teams bunt against the Red Sox, thus cutting down the catcher's ability to get assists on those plays.

Actually, I'm not that fond of it's rating for catchers anyway. I still don't understand why catchers' defensive contributions are thought of as important as a CF, or SS, or even 2B.

Skipaway · 11-02-2005, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hotblack Desiato

On ESPN.com, 68% of fan voters say Jeter is not the best shortstop in the AL. I'm very surprised. It's even 50/50 in NY/NJ. I didn't realise the average fan was as aware of his overrating.

ESPN.com readers aren't average fans. ESPN.com is actually very sabermetric friendly.

mlyons · 11-02-2005, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

Actually, I'm not that fond of it's rating for catchers anyway. I still don't understand why catchers' defensive contributions are thought of as important as a CF, or SS, or even 2B.

Because their offensive contributions are generally so weak, people feel a need to overestimate their defensive contributions in order to place them on a par with other "glove-first" postitions.

TotalEnd98 · 11-02-2005, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

Actually, I'm not that fond of it's rating for catchers anyway. I still don't understand why catchers' defensive contributions are thought of as important as a CF, or SS, or even 2B.

I think it's a combination of the catcher being involved with nearly every pitch and the physical demands of the position. It's of roughly the same difficulty as those three positions, but not for the same reasons those are difficult.

Eckstein 4 Prez · 11-02-2005, 07:10 PM

As an Angels fan, I still don't think Cabrera should have won it. He was a definite upgrade at short, but wasn't really anything that great. Also, one thing that I never see mentioned is the fact that the official scorer in Anaheim has been extremely reluctant to give errors on close plays for years now. I'd be really interested to see if this gets tracked anywhere, because I think it artificially inflates the fielding percentage of the Angels, and to a lesser extent the entire AL West.

JDOldSchool · 11-02-2005, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

As an Angels fan, I still don't think Cabrera should have won it. He was a definite upgrade at short, but wasn't really anything that great. Also, one thing that I never see mentioned is the fact that the official scorer in Anaheim has been extremely reluctant to give errors on close plays for years now. I'd be really interested to see if this gets tracked anywhere, because I think it artificially inflates the fielding percentage of the Angels, and to a lesser extent the entire AL West.

Official scorer judgment is another reason I love UZR. It takes the official scorer out of the picture.

darkhorse · 11-02-2005, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eckstein 4 Prez

Also, one thing that I never see mentioned is the fact that the official scorer in Anaheim has been extremely reluctant to give errors on close plays for years now. I'd be really interested to see if this gets tracked anywhere, because I think it artificially inflates the fielding percentage of the Angels, and to a lesser extent the entire AL West.

It's the same way at Texas games. Our defense must be good because we don't commit a lot of errors! Woot! Woot!

darkhorse · 11-02-2005, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDOldSchool

Official scorer judgment is another reason I love UZR. It takes the official scorer out of the picture.

And now it has removed the baseball fan from the equation as well. Woot....erm.....woot.

Luis_Rivera · 11-02-2005, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TotalEnd98

I think it's a combination of the catcher being involved with nearly every pitch and the physical demands of the position. It's of roughly the same difficulty as those three positions, but not for the same reasons those are difficult.

But really... how big of a difference is it from the worst to the best catcher?? Surely, the best catcher wouldn't be that much better at catching a pitch than the worst. Especially when you compare the worst possible player in a SS role compared to the best.

I really don't think it is a premium defensive position when I think about it logically, and I've yet to hear a convincing argument.

darkhorse · 11-02-2005, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

I really don't think it is a premium defensive position when I think about it logically, and I've yet to hear a convincing argument.

Sounds like you are prime material for the tools of ............kidding, just kidding.

attackemu · 11-02-2005, 08:02 PM

Yeah, but...uh...they're the field general! The quarterback, if you will! Think of all those runners they throw out!

Luis_Rivera · 11-02-2005, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by attackemu

Yeah, but...uh...they're the field general! The quarterback, if you will! Think of all those runners they throw out!

Haha... honestly throwing out runners seems to be the most significant part of their defensive responsibilities (really, there really aren't many balls in play in front of the plate)... and how much does that really affect the grand scheme of things compared to say... grounders to the infielders... fly balls to the outfield?

You'd think the stathead community would address this somehow, but I haven't seen anything... and even James obviously has followed suit based on how his ratings go.

I really don't get it... and I'd love to be convinced otherwise.

darkhorse · 11-02-2005, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by attackemu

Yeah, but...uh...they're the field general! The quarterback, if you will! Think of all those runners they throw out!

Sh*t, how would Roger Clemens know what to throw without the loving kindness and encouragement of his backstops?

Luis_Rivera · 11-02-2005, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by darkhorse

Sh*t, how would Roger Clemens know what to throw without the loving kindness and encouragement of his backstops?

20+ years of experience??

Skipaway · 11-02-2005, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luis_Rivera

Haha... honestly throwing out runners seems to be the most significant part of their defensive responsibilities (really, there really aren't many balls in play in front of the plate)... and how much does that really affect the grand scheme of things compared to say... grounders to the infielders... fly balls to the outfield?

You'd think the stathead community would address this somehow, but I haven't seen anything... and even James obviously has followed suit based on how his ratings go.

I really don't get it... and I'd love to be convinced otherwise.

The throwing out runners thing is something that's extremely hard to value.

A perfect catcher would be someone who'd never have to throw out any runner outside of failed hit-and-run, because nobody would run on him. And how do you measure the value in something that didn't happen?

Same problem with outfielder's arms.

darkhorse · 11-02-2005, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skipaway

A perfect catcher would be someone who'd never have to throw out any runner outside of failed hit-and-run, because nobody would run on him.

And how do you measure the value in something that didn't happen?

Same problem with outfielder's arms.

I believe you are referring to Ivan Rodriguez.

You'd take a look at how much below league average the SB attempts are, I suppose.

Surprisingly, baserunner kills were still occurring for Roberto Clemente up til the end. Guess players were stupid back in the old days.

Luis_Rivera · 11-02-2005, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skipaway

A perfect catcher would be someone who'd never have to throw out any runner outside of failed hit-and-run, because nobody would run on him. And how do you measure the value in something that didn't happen?

Not to mention the effect of an Andy Pettitte or another pitcher who is tough to run on, or a Tim Wakefield, who is easier to run on.

Even assuming league average RTO with a high number of attempts... how much of an effect would that really have?

11-02-2005, 07:10 PM	#68
Eckstein 4 Prez Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: The OC Posts: 6,358	As an Angels fan, I still don't think Cabrera should have won it. He was a definite upgrade at short, but wasn't really anything that great. Also, one thing that I never see mentioned is the fact that the official scorer in Anaheim has been extremely reluctant to give errors on close plays for years now. I'd be really interested to see if this gets tracked anywhere, because I think it artificially inflates the fielding percentage of the Angels, and to a lesser extent the entire AL West. __________________ Looking for an insomnia cure? Check out my dynasty thread, The Dawn of American Professional Base Ball, 1871.

11-02-2005, 08:02 PM	#74
attackemu All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 972	Yeah, but...uh...they're the field general! The quarterback, if you will! Think of all those runners they throw out! __________________ "Disguised in EMU's Blunt and sometimes hostile post is actually very sound advice. I think you would be wise to consider what he said." -ihatenames

11-02-2005, 06:03 PM	#63
Hotblack Desiato Major Leagues Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 323	On ESPN.com, 68% of fan voters say Jeter is not the best shortstop in the AL. I'm very surprised. It's even 50/50 in NY/NJ. I didn't realise the average fan was as aware of his overrating.