Competitive balance discussion - Page 32

Orcin · 12-13-2018, 01:28 PM

I think it would be a good idea to accelerate the promotion of the best teams and give the weaker teams a bit more space to breathe. How about, for this week only, every team with a regular season win total of 110 or more jumps two levels to Diamond? Then go back to the regular routine in the future.

Thalion · 12-13-2018, 01:46 PM

I think down the line we may need an additional league. Maybe not necessarily for OOTP 19 because of the shortened term, but possibly for OOTP20 when the term goes for a full year. This would allow people to spread out a bit further.

But again, it's a bit early so we can see how things work out.

Matt Arnold · 12-13-2018, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thalion

I think down the line we may need an additional league. Maybe not necessarily for OOTP 19 because of the shortened term, but possibly for OOTP20 when the term goes for a full year. This would allow people to spread out a bit further.

But again, it's a bit early so we can see how things work out.

Teams are only split into 2 leagues right now. At the max, PT will have 5 tiers of leagues, so that should help space things out.

I'm fairly certain that in OOTP20, we'll do things to accelerate the league movement early, but obviously have not decided exactly how to do that yet.

chazzycat · 12-13-2018, 01:57 PM

I like it how it is TBH. So far I am holding my own with the whales, but that doesn't mean I want to be in a league with JUST whales quite yet...

Orcin · 12-13-2018, 02:02 PM

The complaint about accelerated promotion when it was raised before was timing. I suppose that complaint could apply again, but it is not like teams haven't been trying to win for two weeks.

I would think that the top teams would welcome the chance to skip a level and get to the Perfect World Series sooner.

Kushiel · 12-13-2018, 03:04 PM

So you want to take a week away from the better teams in different leagues even though many of those players may need to and have the same right as everyone else to spend that time getting better before they are lumped together? I have seen 100+ win teams that would stand no chance against many of the better teams. There are leagues where the talent level does not match up with the talent in other leagues that were seeded into more talented leagues. You may win 100-110 games in a league where you could completely miss the playoffs in other leagues right now. My Plankton team made it to the conference finals and were beaten by a team with more wins and better talent. That team is in Silver now as are my Plankton. That team would very likely get absolutely slaughtered by about 6 or 7 of the teams in the league I am in now with my Horned Frogs..

When OOTP 20 starts make the changes and announce them before it starts.

Edit: For example there is a regular poster here that made the playoffs in our Bronze league with a nice team for that league. This time in our Silver League, he is already 24 games behind. This illustrates the strength difference in various leagues.

Orcin · 12-13-2018, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kushiel

So you want to take a week away from the better teams in different leagues even though many of those players may need to and have the same right as everyone else to spend that time getting better before they are lumped together? I have seen 100+ win teams that would stand no chance against many of the better teams. There are leagues where the talent level does not match up with the talent in other leagues that were seeded into more talented leagues. You may win 100-110 games in a league where you could completely miss the playoffs in other leagues right now. My Plankton team made it to the conference finals and were beaten by a team with more wins and better talent. That team is in Silver now as are my Plankton. That team would very likely get absolutely slaughtered by about 6 or 7 of the teams in the league I am in now with my Horned Frogs..

When OOTP 20 starts make the changes and announce them before it starts.

Edit: For example there is a regular poster here that made the playoffs in our Bronze league with a nice team for that league. This time in our Silver League, he is already 24 games behind. This illustrates the strength difference in various leagues.

You need to read my post again. I said 110 wins or more, not 100 or more.

So you are saying that those teams with 110 wins or more need more time to improve their teams before facing off against other teams that had 110 wins or more. Is that your final answer?

My idea would help the guy in your edit, not hurt him.

Kushiel · 12-13-2018, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin

You need to read my post again. I said 110 wins or more, not 100 or more.

So you are saying that those teams with 110 wins or more need more time to improve their teams before facing off against other teams that had 110 wins or more. Is that your final answer?

My idea would help the guy in your edit, not hurt him.

I used 100+ wins because it is a narrow line between 100 and 110 in this game. Just one good winning streak can do it. I feel my first team can play with anybody and so far we have. The competition is not a problem for my Horned Frogs and it would likely help my Plankton too. .Nevertheless there are teams in less talented leagues like the team I mentioned that might win many more games in some leagues than others. One jump into a new league like we just made can make a contender at one level into fodder at the next. I only won 106 games last season but that was because of the division that I was in. If I were in the division and league that my free team, the Happy Plankton, was in during Bronze, I may have won 130 games.

Orcin · 12-13-2018, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kushiel

I used 100+ wins because it is a narrow line between 100 and 110 in this game. Just one good winning streak can do it. I feel my first team can play with anybody and so far we have. The competition is not a problem for my Horned Frogs and it would likely help my Plankton too. .Nevertheless there are teams in less talented leagues like the team I mentioned that might win many more games in some leagues than others. One jump into a new league like we just made can make a contender at one level into fodder at the next. I only won 106 games last season but that was because of the division that I was in. If I were in the division and league that my free team, the Happy Plankton, was in during Bronze, I may have won 130 games.

Teams that do well in less competitive leagues will be promoted under the existing system. If they are winning 110 games in those leagues, they can probably compete in diamond and will be there in two weeks regardless.

Kushiel · 12-13-2018, 04:13 PM

Well, we can agree to disagree.

OOTP can do what they want. It makes me no difference. I obey the laws of the land. As I said one of my teams fears nobody and I enjoy the competition. But I think there are teams whose managers will have no notice because they just play. They never come here. Some of them will get a very rude awakening. That is not good for the game.

In the words of the ingenious Forrest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that."

Matt Arnold · 12-13-2018, 04:27 PM

I think we learned from before that changing the rules in the middle gets a little awkward. I don't think shifting in a double-promotion this week would make any sense. Safe to say that we'll keep the regular promotion system for this year, but will certainly have more discussion for 20 and will very likely have a system there to speed things up at the start.

chazzycat · 12-13-2018, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orcin

Teams that do well in less competitive leagues will be promoted under the existing system. If they are winning 110 games in those leagues, they can probably compete in diamond and will be there in two weeks regardless.

Regardless of where you draw the line in terms of number of wins, your idea would deprive teams of an extra week against relatively weaker opponents. Maybe you're right and the whales themselves would prefer to speed it up. But they aren't the ones that need that extra week to improve their roster to have a chance. That would certainly hurt players like me whose team is competitive, but don't spend much money. Don't these whales already have enough advantage?

I get that people want the whales out of their league, but it would be more fair for everyone to stick to the original plan IMO. And maybe just have a little patience.

Orcin · 12-13-2018, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

I think we learned from before that changing the rules in the middle gets a little awkward. I don't think shifting in a double-promotion this week would make any sense. Safe to say that we'll keep the regular promotion system for this year, but will certainly have more discussion for 20 and will very likely have a system there to speed things up at the start.

Fair enough.

Janks · 12-13-2018, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

I think we learned from before that changing the rules in the middle gets a little awkward. I don't think shifting in a double-promotion this week would make any sense. Safe to say that we'll keep the regular promotion system for this year, but will certainly have more discussion for 20 and will very likely have a system there to speed things up at the start.

I think that will be helpful in OOTP20. I may be in the minority, but I feel like the '62 Mets each season.

Season 1 - .500 record. No playoffs, yet good enough for promotion
Season 2 - .448 record. No chance of playoff and I have the 15th best record.

If I can keep this winning percentage, I will be in the Gold league in year 3 with no playoffs. I will probably get relegated back to Silver in year 4 and for only the second time, I will have a chance of making the playoffs.

It's a lot harder to earn offensive PP's when you face Diamond and Gold pitchers. No extra points for playoffs and I only have 1 player in the All Star game. Next year will be even worse.

I understand that this is probably a minority, but I have another team in a similar situation.
Season 1 - 84-78 .519 record. No playoffs, yet good enough for promotion
Season 2 - .436 records No chance of playoff and I have the 19th best record. I have a chance of getting promoted, however, it looks like I'll stay Silver. At least I should be competitive again.

Morug · 12-13-2018, 06:04 PM

maybe by teams who win the championship directly promoted to a higher level, teams who made the playoff and not win the championship in an other level, teams over .500 and who dont make the playoff in other level of competition and all other teams in an inferior level of competition?

One Post Wonder · 12-13-2018, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janks

I think that will be helpful in OOTP20. I may be in the minority, but I feel like the '62 Mets each season.

Season 1 - .500 record. No playoffs, yet good enough for promotion
Season 2 - .448 record. No chance of playoff and I have the 15th best record.

If I can keep this winning percentage, I will be in the Gold league in year 3 with no playoffs. I will probably get relegated back to Silver in year 4 and for only the second time, I will have a chance of making the playoffs.

I went 78-84 last season, 54 games out of first place, and I still got promoted. Pushing the Whales out to sea is one thing, but with the early game promotion rules there are a lot of sand crabs going up with them.

I understand that we can't change this now, but it is definitely something that needs smoothing out for next year.

BTW, how is everyone feeling now about higher leagues paying out higher rewards? There's still seats available on this bandwagon. Don't be ashamed!

Kushiel · 12-13-2018, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

I went 78-84 last season, 54 games out of first place, and I still got promoted. Pushing the Whales out to sea is one thing, but with the early game promotion rules there are a lot of sand crabs going up with them.

I understand that we can't change this now, but it is definitely something that needs smoothing out for next year.

BTW, how is everyone feeling now about higher leagues paying out higher rewards? There's still seats available on this bandwagon. Don't be ashamed!

I will be in the higher leagues based on what my Fightin' Frogs have accomplished so far. There is nothing that I can see that makes me deserve any higher reward than the worst team in Bronze. If we earn the same achievement against the competition level that we are faced with, what makes one worth more than the other? They are equal. We are looking at apples and apples. You think it is because I face better competition? That does not work for me. I have a better team to face that competition. There is no difference.

.

Weaseltail · 12-13-2018, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janks

I understand that this is probably a minority . . .

I don't think you're in the minority. Some teams are so stacked it takes a lot of the fun out of the game. If you're out of the playoff hunt by Tues/Wed, the rest of the week is a drag. Eventually this will get resolved, but right now it sucks.

I still think this game would be much more fun long-term if there was a point cap of some sort so you had to design teams with silver/bronze cards, as well as pushing for diamonds and perfects. Maybe tournaments will fill this void.

spleen1015 · 12-14-2018, 06:48 AM

We need to let this play out before we jump to any real conclusions. Let the teams get spread out some more. Let teams go through a few more years where we have more promotion and relegation then decide how things are.

Ormondbeachdan · 12-14-2018, 07:15 AM

Ok... Let me see if I am thinking clearly with this scenario.. Let's project that we go to say week 7 0r 8.. and lets say everything has "leveled out".. Now as new teams enter or are right behind a certain level they spend a ton to become whales, and would that mean there will ALWAYS be a whale or two in your league no matter what?..Dunno if I am right or making any sense here..

12-13-2018, 03:04 PM	#626
Kushiel All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Deep in the Heart of Texas Posts: 1,810	So you want to take a week away from the better teams in different leagues even though many of those players may need to and have the same right as everyone else to spend that time getting better before they are lumped together? I have seen 100+ win teams that would stand no chance against many of the better teams. There are leagues where the talent level does not match up with the talent in other leagues that were seeded into more talented leagues. You may win 100-110 games in a league where you could completely miss the playoffs in other leagues right now. My Plankton team made it to the conference finals and were beaten by a team with more wins and better talent. That team is in Silver now as are my Plankton. That team would very likely get absolutely slaughtered by about 6 or 7 of the teams in the league I am in now with my Horned Frogs.. When OOTP 20 starts make the changes and announce them before it starts. Edit: For example there is a regular poster here that made the playoffs in our Bronze league with a nice team for that league. This time in our Silver League, he is already 24 games behind. This illustrates the strength difference in various leagues. __________________ *Favente Deo supero* Last edited by Kushiel; 12-13-2018 at 03:13 PM.

12-13-2018, 04:13 PM	#630
Kushiel All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Deep in the Heart of Texas Posts: 1,810	Well, we can agree to disagree. OOTP can do what they want. It makes me no difference. I obey the laws of the land. As I said one of my teams fears nobody and I enjoy the competition. But I think there are teams whose managers will have no notice because they just play. They never come here. Some of them will get a very rude awakening. That is not good for the game. In the words of the ingenious Forrest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that." __________________ *Favente Deo supero*

12-13-2018, 06:04 PM	#635
Morug Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 308	maybe by teams who win the championship directly promoted to a higher level, teams who made the playoff and not win the championship in an other level, teams over .500 and who dont make the playoff in other level of competition and all other teams in an inferior level of competition? Last edited by Morug; 12-13-2018 at 06:44 PM.

12-13-2018, 01:28 PM	#621
Orcin Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Indiana Posts: 9,890	I think it would be a good idea to accelerate the promotion of the best teams and give the weaker teams a bit more space to breathe. How about, for this week only, every team with a regular season win total of 110 or more jumps two levels to Diamond? Then go back to the regular routine in the future.

12-13-2018, 01:46 PM	#622
Thalion Major Leagues Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 413	I think down the line we may need an additional league. Maybe not necessarily for OOTP 19 because of the shortened term, but possibly for OOTP20 when the term goes for a full year. This would allow people to spread out a bit further. But again, it's a bit early so we can see how things work out.

12-13-2018, 01:57 PM	#624
chazzycat All Star Starter Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 1,685	I like it how it is TBH. So far I am holding my own with the whales, but that doesn't mean I want to be in a league with JUST whales quite yet...

12-13-2018, 02:02 PM	#625
Orcin Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Indiana Posts: 9,890	The complaint about accelerated promotion when it was raised before was timing. I suppose that complaint could apply again, but it is not like teams haven't been trying to win for two weeks. I would think that the top teams would welcome the chance to skip a level and get to the Perfect World Series sooner.

12-13-2018, 04:27 PM	#631
Matt Arnold OOTP Developer Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Here and there Posts: 16,329	I think we learned from before that changing the rules in the middle gets a little awkward. I don't think shifting in a double-promotion this week would make any sense. Safe to say that we'll keep the regular promotion system for this year, but will certainly have more discussion for 20 and will very likely have a system there to speed things up at the start.

12-14-2018, 06:48 AM	#639
spleen1015 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 6,010	We need to let this play out before we jump to any real conclusions. Let the teams get spread out some more. Let teams go through a few more years where we have more promotion and relegation then decide how things are.

12-14-2018, 07:15 AM	#640
Ormondbeachdan Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ormond Beach Fl Posts: 300	Ok... Let me see if I am thinking clearly with this scenario.. Let's project that we go to say week 7 0r 8.. and lets say everything has "leveled out".. Now as new teams enter or are right behind a certain level they spend a ton to become whales, and would that mean there will ALWAYS be a whale or two in your league no matter what?..Dunno if I am right or making any sense here..