When does Gregg Popovich get his due?

[KurtBevacqua]

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

Then you have Tony Parker who is a nice guy and fairly reserved and quiet.

Which brings me to my next point. I suspect I am overlooking someone here, but off the top of my head the only 2 PG's I rate ahead of Parker are Kidd and Nash. I think Parker, not Duncan, is the most overlooked player in the league. He can be flashy when he wants, but he is a pure, fundamentally sound player. Kind of like a more physically gifted John Stockton. One day people are gonna wake up and realize this is a future Hall of Famer.

[TonyJ]

Dwayne Wade?

[marc]

Originally Posted by KurtBevacqua

Which brings me to my next point. I suspect I am overlooking someone here, but off the top of my head the only 2 PG's I rate ahead of Parker are Kidd and Nash. I think Parker, not Duncan, is the most overlooked player in the league. He can be flashy when he wants, but he is a pure, fundamentally sound player. Kind of like a more physically gifted John Stockton. One day people are gonna wake up and realize this is a future Hall of Famer.

Remember that Iverson is now officially a PG. Also depends what you consider Wade, I consider him a SG.

[KurtBevacqua]

I don't consider Wade a PG at all. As for Iverson, he's great and does things Parker can only dream of, but as a pure PG Iverson can't and never will do the kinds of things Parker does to steer his team to win championships. If I was building a team from scratch and had the choice of either Iverson or Parker as my PG, I'd take Parker. Besides, I said I probably was missing someone. I don't look as Iverson as a pure PG so I wasn't comparing him to Parker.

[marc]

Originally Posted by KurtBevacqua

I don't consider Wade a PG at all. As for Iverson, he's great and does things Parker can only dream of, but as a pure PG Iverson can't and never will do the kinds of things Parker does to steer his team to win championships. If I was building a team from scratch and had the choice of either Iverson or Parker as my PG, I'd take Parker. Besides, I said I probably was missing someone. I don't look as Iverson as a pure PG so I wasn't comparing him to Parker.

I agree with you for the most part, was just pointing out that Iverson is technically a PG, and really he always has been if you think about it. When they had Snow he just dribbled the ball across half-court and handed it to AI. Totally disagree with you about taking Parker over AI but the topic of this thread isn't AI vs. Tony Parker so there's no need for me to get into that.

[TonyJ]

Wade is technically a point as well. He brings the ball up the court, he runs the offense and he makes his teammates better by sharing the ball. Just because he is a fabulous scorer doesn't make him a two.

[KurtBevacqua]

Originally Posted by TonyJ

Wade is technically a point as well. He brings the ball up the court, he runs the offense and he makes his teammates better by sharing the ball. Just because he is a fabulous scorer doesn't make him a two.

Wade's great, no doubt. But put him on a team with just a decent PG and he moves back to 2. I remember for awhile the Bulls put Jordan at the point and he was brilliant. Hell, no doubt in my mind had Jordan been a PG from day one he would have been the greatest to ever play it, but his natural position was always as a 2. Same for Wade. No doubt in my mind he could be one of the great 1's of all-time if that were his full-time position, but it's not the position he's best at. In time he will become one of the great 2's of all-time, his proper position.

Parker is a pure 1, period. Is he better or worse than Wade as a 1? I don't know. Good question, but Parker is undoubtedly a 1 and Wade should be a 2. As a 1 he is great but out of position.

As just a pure basketball player, no position considered, I'd take Wade over Parker 7 days a week. As a pure basketball player given a team with decent talent elsewhere I'd take Parker over Iverson. It's close, but I like Tony as a winning team player over Iverson, the great individual player that he is.

[TonyJ]

Well, I'm not so sure Parker is pure point either. He is a very intelligent player and does a great job of running the offense but as a player he has more in common with Wade than he does John Stockton. His offensive game is based around driving to the hoop to score, not to pass to open teammates. In the flow of the offense he will pass the ball and indeed make the extra pass, but he's not going to be a Steve Nash where he gets in to the lane and finds the open man. When he gets in to the lane he's taking the shot. His career high in assist was this year with 6.1 per game, while Wade averaged 6.8.

[Meth_Lab_for_Rudy]

I'd like to take this chance to thank all involved with this post for not using the term "bigs" to refer to large players. Thanks. Keep up the great work.

Whoa. Deja vu with these last posts. Weird.

Anyways, Parker isn't even close to Nash, Kidd, and barely (if he does) the top 10 points guards in the league. He's just too inconsistent right now, looking like Superman one game and entirely passive the next. And Parker doesn't have the passing skills to succeed as a passing guard. His strength is his league leading quickness and penetration skills. When he doesn't penetrate, he's almost useless on offense other than bringing the ball down.

Here are guys I'd rather have than Parker last year.

Jason Kidd
Steve Nash
Mike Bibby
Stephon Marbury
Gilbert Arenas
Chauncey Billups

Here are guys I'd put in the same league as Parker.

Steve Francis
Andre Miller
Jamaal Tinsley
Jason Terry
Kirk Hinrich

That said, Parker, amazingly, is still the youngest of this group which means he still has a lot of time to grow and improve. The Spurs have a heck of a core signed long term with Ginobili, Parker, and Duncan.

[Arlie Rahn]

Originally Posted by Yyzlin

Hmm, I just going to have to say, a huge no. Duncan was 2nd All-Defense out of college, and at 22, was 1st team All-Defense and has been a fixture since.

Yeah, once Duncan entered the NBA, he was a good player. But, given this was Amare's 3rd year out of HS, so next season would be comparable to Duncan's senior season at Wake. So, given that comparison, I would say Amare is pretty close to the same level (defensively) that Duncan was his senior season.

Being a nice defensive player in college is not even in the same stratosphere as being one in the pros. In college (even the ACC), you play maybe one or two NBA-starting calibur post guys in your conference - and probably fewer on the road.

To put it another way, if Amare was in college right now, he would be one of the top 5 post defenders in the game.

Originally Posted by Arlie Rahn

Yeah, once Duncan entered the NBA, he was a good player. But, given this was Amare's 3rd year out of HS, so next season would be comparable to Duncan's senior season at Wake. So, given that comparison, I would say Amare is pretty close to the same level (defensively) that Duncan was his senior season.

Being a nice defensive player in college is not even in the same stratosphere as being one in the pros. In college (even the ACC), you play maybe one or two NBA-starting calibur post guys in your conference - and probably fewer on the road.

To put it another way, if Amare was in college right now, he would be one of the top 5 post defenders in the game.

If you take the years of experience route, then yeah. Stoudemire was really old coming out of high school though. He was the same age as many of the sophomores in college.

[marc]

I gotta agree with Arlie on this one. Kenyon Martin was Mr. All-world defense in college, now what is he? Just your average defensive Power Forward. Amare is raw but could become an excellent defensive player if he works hard at it. Anyone that flat out OUTPLAYS Tim Duncan heads up for 5 games in a row can ball. He needs to develop a more consistent jumper and apply his athletic ability on the defensive end a bit more and he will be the best player in the league in a few years.

Originally Posted by marc

I gotta agree with Arlie on this one. Kenyon Martin was Mr. All-world defense in college, now what is he? Just your average defensive Power Forward. Amare is raw but could become an excellent defensive player if he works hard at it. Anyone that flat out OUTPLAYS Tim Duncan heads up for 5 games in a row can ball. He needs to develop a more consistent jumper and apply his athletic ability on the defensive end a bit more and he will be the best player in the league in a few years.

Kenyon Martin is still an above average defender, so I'm not sure what you are talking about. Anyway, I never said that Stoudemire cannot become a great defender. I'm simply saying that he isn't even close to Duncan at age 22 as a defender, and likely will never reach Duncan's defensive prowess. And Stoudemire did outplay Duncan on the offensive end, but not on the defensive end where Stoudemire was virtually absent except for a few highlight blocks. He was a big reason why Horry and Mohammed had a really productive series.

[Arlie Rahn]

Here's the issue though. Duncan is as good as he's going to be right now. Amare has barely touched the surface on his complete game. All that said, Amare completely outplayed Duncan on the offensive end and did it against a much better team defense (ie, helping) than Duncan faced (until Joe Johnson came back).

If Amare can become more consistent on the defensive end and continue to grow offensively, he will be a better overall player than Duncan - probably by age 24. Imagine where he's going to be at age 28 <shudder>.

Originally Posted by Arlie Rahn

Here's the issue though. Duncan is as good as he's going to be right now. Amare has barely touched the surface on his complete game. All that said, Amare completely outplayed Duncan on the offensive end and did it against a much better team defense (ie, helping) than Duncan faced (until Joe Johnson came back).

If Amare can become more consistent on the defensive end and continue to grow offensively, he will be a better overall player than Duncan - probably by age 24. Imagine where he's going to be at age 28 <shudder>.

I agree, but as of now, we don't know whether the progress in rebounding and defense will be made. People said the same about Kemp on the defensive end, and it never happened (even before he got washed up). Offensively, he still is very raw as well. He struggles with double teams, and is a very poor passer from the post. BTW, I think it's fair to say that Stoudemire at 24, is probably what Stoudemire is. Rarely do players improve past that age.