Why does David Eckstein still have a job? - Page 3

mlyons · 04-22-2005, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fallschirmjager

When is defense NOT critical at the SS posistion?

Lets try and keep some sanity here.

How about from 1996-2000 in New York?

sebastian0622 · 04-22-2005, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

Hm. Eckstein was 16th among 21 qualifying shortstops in RC/27 last year. So he isn't doing anything with the bat, and people seem to think he's horrible defensively (I have no idea, just going by the concensus here). What exactly does he do well? He's the stereotypical "hits .275 with no power or walks, plays ok defense, and looks good in a uniform" guy. I hate those guys.

Edit: I'm not saying his value is much different from Renteria or Cabrera. All 3 are fairly crap.

Which means that he's probably better than half the league--5 who qualified and a dozen others who platooned or otherwise didn't qualify, probably because they weren't good enough to get the PA to qualify.

This guy is an accomplished bunter (54 bunts past 4 years), takes 40 walks per year, which isn't great but shows that he does take a few, and hits over .270. Add in that he can pick it in the field, add in that he steals a few bases, add in his intangibles (work ethic and how he sets the example, ability to hit to the right side of the field w/no out and runner on 2nd, etc), and I don't see how he's not worth $2 mil a year. Especially if you look at how much the fans love him--that might be worth $2 mil alone in revenue. And I'm not even a Cards fan.

UngratefulDead · 04-22-2005, 07:14 PM

He's no Omar Vizquel!!!1111

[/bitter Giants fan] (I think I should add that to my signature)

Cyclone792 · 04-22-2005, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

Which means that he's probably better than half the league--5 who qualified and a dozen others who platooned or otherwise didn't qualify, probably because they weren't good enough to get the PA to qualify.

This guy is an accomplished bunter (54 bunts past 4 years), takes 40 walks per year, which isn't great but shows that he does take a few, and hits over .270. Add in that he can pick it in the field, add in that he steals a few bases, add in his intangibles (work ethic and how he sets the example, ability to hit to the right side of the field w/no out and runner on 2nd, etc), and I don't see how he's not worth $2 mil a year. Especially if you look at how much the fans love him--that might be worth $2 mil alone in revenue. And I'm not even a Cards fan.

MLB had 24 shortstops last season with 10 or more win shares and David Eckstein wasn't one of them.

That's not worth $2 million per to me. I'd rather pay $300k for a replacement level bat that can snag it in the field before I'd pay $2 million for David Eckstein.

sebastian0622 · 04-22-2005, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclone792

MLB had 24 shortstops last season with 10 or more win shares and David Eckstein wasn't one of them.

That's not worth $2 million per to me. I'd rather pay $300k for a replacement level bat that can snag it in the field before I'd pay $2 million for David Eckstein.

Who can you get for $300k that is going to have a .97x fld % at SS, .340 OBP, be able to bunt, and make jerseys fly off the merchandise rack?

Cyclone792 · 04-22-2005, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

Who can you get for $300k that is going to have a .97x fld % at SS, .340 OBP, be able to bunt, and make jerseys fly off the merchandise rack?

Cesar Izturis made $358k last season and Adam Everett made $370k last season. If I'm St. Louis, I can leave the jersey sales to Pujols and Edmonds.

sebastian0622 · 04-22-2005, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclone792

Cesar Izturis made $358k last season and Adam Everett made $370k last season. If I'm St. Louis, I can leave the jersey sales to Pujols and Edmonds.

And what would a GM have to give up to get Izturis or Everett? A lot more than the Cards gave up to get Eck. Therein lies your answer.

Karros270 · 04-22-2005, 07:49 PM

I'm sure Maicer (sp?) Itzuris could of been had pretty cheap.

rudel.dietrich · 04-22-2005, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mlyons

How about from 1996-2000 in New York?

Well ok
It isn't critical when you have the best offense in the history of baseball, excellent pitching and a lights out bullpen.
Also, I am not convinced Jeter is a terrible SS
He has a decent fielding % and a strong arm.
I would rate him well below average but not terrible.

Jason Moyer · 04-22-2005, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

Who can you get for $300k that is going to have a .97x fld % at SS, .340 OBP, be able to bunt, and make jerseys fly off the merchandise rack?

You could find a SS of comparable overall value on just about any AAA team. If you were to look up "replacement level" in the dictionary, there would be a picture of Eckstein next to it.

A second point, I wouldn't give a guy $2 million for a .97x fielding percentage or a .340 OBP. Neither of those stats are impressive, and they're almost totally meaningless when you're talking about a guy with no range and an SLG of .333.

sebastian0622 · 04-22-2005, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Moyer

A second point, I wouldn't give a guy $2 million for a .97x fielding percentage or a .340 OBP. Neither of those stats are impressive, and they're almost totally meaningless when you're talking about a guy with no range and an SLG of .333.

But your still ignoring that the guy sells jerseys and makes the fans happy. It's a business move. And I'm not sure that .97x SS's with OBP's of .340 grow on trees like some folks think.

IatricSB · 04-22-2005, 08:30 PM

The pro Eck arguments are starting to get a little desperate now.

Karros270 · 04-22-2005, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IatricSB

The pro Eck arguments are starting to get a little desperate now.

But he's so cute and cuddly, like a little puppy dog!

rem · 04-22-2005, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

But your still ignoring that the guy sells jerseys and makes the fans happy. It's a business move. And I'm not sure that .97x SS's with OBP's of .340 grow on trees like some folks think.

You're ignoring that the fans are already pretty happy in St. Louis. Sure, this might make them more happy but I really don't think it'll show up in the checkbook. Mulder will take care of new jersey sales and if he didn't, I really hope that no one would pay like $100 for an Eckstien jersey.

Fielding percentage doesn't really mean much, BBPro rates him slightly above average to average which surprised me a bit. A .340 OBP, with a .340 SLG, does more or less grow on trees. He's a great bench player who should be ditched when he gets expensive.

Cyclone792 · 04-22-2005, 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

But your still ignoring that the guy sells jerseys and makes the fans happy. It's a business move. And I'm not sure that .97x SS's with OBP's of .340 grow on trees like some folks think.

Like Moyer said, you can find several AAA shortstops for the league minimum that would produce as much as Eckstein, offensively and defensively. I don't know how many David Eckstein jerseys sell per year, but if they don't reap a profit of at least $1.5 million, I'm taking my AAA replacement level shortstop for the league minimum over him.

bulldog55 · 04-22-2005, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bulldog55

He googled "easy shortstop jobs," of course.

When I do finally get my OTB the wait will make it all the sweeter.

Karros270 · 04-22-2005, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bulldog55

When I do finally get my OTB the wait will make it all the sweeter.

I'd put you on the board but I don't believe I'm certified to make those sorts of decisions.

Jason Moyer · 04-22-2005, 08:55 PM

Eckstein's fielding % last year was not .97x. It was .988. I've gone through a dozen starters at short last year and while most of them fielded close to that, the closest was Jimmy Rollins at .986. That changes the argument slightly, as his fielding percentage is very impressive. Still, I wouldn't pay $2 million for a guy who could bunt and didn't make a ton of errors, unless he had decent range and could hit a little. I'd take Steve Jeltz over David Eckstein.

sebastian0622 · 04-22-2005, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyclone792

Like Moyer said, you can find several AAA shortstops for the league minimum that would produce as much as Eckstein, offensively and defensively...

Then why did at least a handful of major league shortstops perform worse than Eck offensively last year? With all of these Ecks growing on tress, you'd think big league managers would be harvesting them and improving their teams, right?

Cyclone792 · 04-22-2005, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sebastian0622

Then why did at least a handful of major league shortstops perform worse than Eck offensively last year? With all of these Ecks growing on tress, you'd think big league managers would be harvesting them and improving their teams, right?

Because there's more than just a handful of Major League Idiots sitting in the front offices. Jim Bowden, for one, immediately comes to mind!

04-22-2005, 07:49 PM	#48
Karros270 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 2,392	I'm sure Maicer (sp?) Itzuris could of been had pretty cheap. __________________ now everybody's praying...don't prey on me

04-22-2005, 08:30 PM	#52
IatricSB Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: California Posts: 3,493	The pro Eck arguments are starting to get a little desperate now. __________________ Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body; but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming, "Wow! What a Ride!" Chicago(N) - Boys of Summer Oakland - 20th Century League Bakersfield - Wild Things Brooklyn - QBA Dodge City - NBSL California - ABC Dodger's Senioriest fan on the OOTP Boards

04-22-2005, 08:55 PM	#58
Jason Moyer Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 5,111	Eckstein's fielding % last year was not .97x. It was .988. I've gone through a dozen starters at short last year and while most of them fielded close to that, the closest was Jimmy Rollins at .986. That changes the argument slightly, as his fielding percentage is very impressive. Still, I wouldn't pay $2 million for a guy who could bunt and didn't make a ton of errors, unless he had decent range and could hit a little. I'd take Steve Jeltz over David Eckstein. __________________ "I pretty much popped everything cold turkey. We were doing steroids they wouldn't give to horses." -- Tom House "I was very fortunate to have a pitching coach by the name of Tom House...Tom, I really miss those days that we spent in the weight room and out on the field working together." -- Nolan Ryan's HoF Induction Speech

04-22-2005, 07:14 PM	#43
UngratefulDead Banned Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 3,415	He's no Omar Vizquel!!!1111 [/bitter Giants fan] (I think I should add that to my signature)