Klitschko Vs Willams....(On now) -

[Jim_Kidd]

I think Klitschko moderates his power, not commiting to his punches as much as - let's say, a young Tyson did. When his opponent is defenseless, as was the case with Kirk Johnson, he punches with a whole lot more authority. Maybe that's his way of conserving energy?

[Mr Big]

Originally Posted by meade95

No way is the rating of a 12 hitting power for Klitschko accurate - His punching power is an 11 (at best)...but more realistically a 10 - Though, I think TBCB has his punches landed to low (they have him at a 36.....he is more accurate than that....his last 3 performances have clearly shown that) - A 37 or 38 is where Klitschko's punches landed should be ....and his hitting power should be a 10...

Hitting Power is derived primarily from knockout percentage. Vitali Klitschko has 34 KOs in 37 fights for a percentage of.918 as a repeating decimal. When you take that number and multiply it by 13 (the highest HP rating in TBCB) you get 11.945945, which rounds up to 12. Hence the rating. Adjustments, usually a decrease, in HP can be made for career stage and level of competition faced. Since Vitali is considered to be in his prime and has fought world class competition, the rating should remain a 12. Also, keep in mind that Mike Tyson hit Danny Williams with everything but the kitchen sink a couldn't put him on the canvas. Klitschko knocked Williams down 4 times. The guy can punch.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by Mr Big

Hitting Power is derived primarily from knockout percentage. Vitali Klitschko has 34 KOs in 37 fights for a percentage of.918 as a repeating decimal. When you take that number and multiply it by 13 (the highest HP rating in TBCB) you get 11.945945, which rounds up to 12. Hence the rating. Adjustments, usually a decrease, in HP can be made for career stage and level of competition faced. Since Vitali is considered to be in his prime and has fought world class competition, the rating should remain a 12. Also, keep in mind that Mike Tyson hit Danny Williams with everything but the kitchen sink a couldn't put him on the canvas. Klitschko knocked Williams down 4 times. The guy can punch.

First off I do not think that is how TBCB hitting power is come to (that equation) and if so....then TBCB is riddled throughout with errors - Secondly, if that is the equation it is simply silly -

The notion of competition level plays a much larger factor in determining one's punching power (I can name you 50 Asian fighters who have tons of KO's....and a KO % right up in the 90 %.....yet their hitting power should be no more than a 4 at best) -

Lastly, Klitschko's competition has been anything BUT World Class for the majority of his KO's - And trying to say an over-the-hill Tyson didn't knock Williams out isn't saying anything -

Fact is I have watched Klitschko fight now for 3 years (and I have also watched 9 of his other fights on tape) - The guy has no where near a 12 HP....Not even close.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by Jim_Kidd

I think Klitschko moderates his power, not commiting to his punches as much as - let's say, a young Tyson did. When his opponent is defenseless, as was the case with Kirk Johnson, he punches with a whole lot more authority. Maybe that's his way of conserving energy?

Agree with you somewhat here - As I think Vitali does do this to a great extent - However, he has hit a number of people very clean and they have stayed up - (I have thought his hitting power has been a little over-rated and over-hyped now for a couple years......His fight last night Vs Williams only further proved it to me....He is 250 + pounds and he hit Williams CLEAN more times than I can count on both hands.....and Williams kept getting up..... While Vitali does have a big punch....(I'm not saying he doesn't...he does)....he does not have the power associated with a 12 rating -

[Mr Big]

Originally Posted by meade95

First off I do not think that is how TBCB hitting power is come to (that equation) and if so....then TBCB is riddled throughout with errors - Secondly, if that is the equation it is simply silly -

The notion of competition level plays a much larger factor in determining one's punching power (I can name you 50 Asian fighters who have tons of KO's....and a KO % right up in the 90 %.....yet their hitting power should be no more than a 4 at best) -

Lastly, Klitschko's competition has been anything BUT World Class for the majority of his KO's - And trying to say an over-the-hill Tyson didn't knock Williams out isn't saying anything -

Fact is I have watched Klitschko fight now for 3 years (and I have also watched 9 of his other fights on tape) - The guy has no where near a 12 HP....Not even close.

First of all that IS the TBCB formula for rating punching power. I wrote it down a couple of years ago from the old website. Ask Andreas or the Trunzos if that isn't a close facsimile of the number crunching they do to derive HP. Do you honestly think I just made that up?

Secondly, I think I made it perfectly clear that adjustments for HP could be made for both career stage and level of competition faced.

Vitali Klitschko's competition at THIS STAGE of his career has been world class. Like it or not, Danny Williams, Corrie Sanders, Kirk Johnson, and then world champion Lennox Lewis have to be considered world class. Whether the majority of his KOs came against world class competition is completely irrelevant, because we are talking about CAREER STAGE. The same could be said for power punchers like Rocky Marciano and George Foreman. You won't recognize most of the names on their resumes' before they became contenders and champions, either.

Mike Tyson, despite his fading boxing skills, is still one of the hardest punchers in the sport. Everyone knows that punching power is usually the last thing a heavyweight loses. TBCB has Tyson's current HP at 11, so it is relevant that he failed to knock Danny Williams down and Klitschko managed to do it 4 times.

I have also followed Vitali Klitschko's career very closely and think he deserves the "12" rating for HP. 34 KOs in 35 wins speaks for itself.

[meade95]

Originally Posted by Mr Big

First of all that IS the TBCB formula for rating punching power. I wrote it down a couple of years ago from the old website. Ask Andreas or the Trunzos if that isn't a close facsimile of the number crunching they do to derive HP. Do you honestly think I just made that up?

Secondly, I think I made it perfectly clear that adjustments for HP could be made for both career stage and level of competition faced.

Vitali Klitschko's competition at THIS STAGE of his career has been world class. Like it or not, Danny Williams, Corrie Sanders, Kirk Johnson, and then world champion Lennox Lewis have to be considered world class. Whether the majority of his KOs came against world class competition is completely irrelevant, because we are talking about CAREER STAGE. The same could be said for power punchers like Rocky Marciano and George Foreman. You won't recognize most of the names on their resumes' before they became contenders and champions, either.

Mike Tyson, despite his fading boxing skills, is still one of the hardest punchers in the sport. Everyone knows that punching power is usually the last thing a heavyweight loses. TBCB has Tyson's current HP at 11, so it is relevant that he failed to knock Danny Williams down and Klitschko managed to do it 4 times.

I have also followed Vitali Klitschko's career very closely and think he deserves the "12" rating for HP. 34 KOs in 35 wins speaks for itself.

Guess I'll just have to disagree with you on this one ....

I have long talked with Trunzo's since way back to the lance-haffner games...and trust me the equation you stated is only the STARTING point to figuring HP and much tweaking is done from there.....much! (again or TBCB is riddled with errors...that one can simply see by doing the math with fighter after fighter from WW down!) -

Lastly to suggest that Vitali has been fighting World Class fighters and that at the time in which he is fighting these fighters (Corrie Sanders, K. Johnson and Williams.....have to laugh)....that you seem to be suggesting.....because they are considred world class now (which I actually don't agree with....nor would most of the current trainers / experts in boxing)....but that you would suggest that means Vitali should see his HP at a 12......I simply find as curious logic -
<P>
I mean if a guy is fighting in an era of bums.....that he Ko's them at a certain high % rate.....does not mean that another fighter who fought in a tougher era...and had a lower KO %.....has less punching power......(that is simply silly) -
<P>
Foreman never hit any of the bums he fought clean time after time only to see them pick themselfs up time and again - Tyson in his prime never hit bums with shot after shot only to see them keep getting up....(nope...didn't happen).
<P>
And the fact is TBCB has post-prime Tyson's power a little over-rated (IMO) ....while I'll agree that power is typically one of the last assest to go......the fact is for shorter punchers like Tyson that isn't always true.....the fact is much of Tyson's power came from not simply hitting power alone.....but from power + the hand-speed with which the force was delivered. (and Tyson has lost lots of hand speed in the last 2 years).
<P>
I have 9 of Vitali's fights on tape - I have seen him time and again hit guys clean and they don't fall - (secondly, Willams was really kd 3 times, not 4....one of those was a push / grab down)...and also Willams seem to fall another time out of pure exhaustion (more so than a pure power shot from Vatali) -
<P>
Vitali's power is in no way a 12 - (no way...a 10 at best) - Though his punches landed is not as low as the 36 that TBCB currently has him at either...more like a 38 -
<P>
Lastly it isn't really accurate for you to suggest Klitschko has put out fighters in some extent in the same way other big punchers like Foreman did..... (because as you correctly state that Foreman had a lot of no name KO victimas as well...but that is only one/half of the full equation - Foreman also put out the lights of the Fraizer's (twice), Norton's, Lyle's, etc.....heck I would stack up OLD George Foremans KO of M. Moorer as just as impressive as any KO Klitschko has managed to score - (Klitschko hasn't put out fighters anywhere near the rankings of Fraizer's, Nortons, Lyles, etc).

[Mr Big]

I guess we will just agree to disagree. Bottom line is, I predicted Klitschko's 8th round knockout of Williams several days in advance, using TBCB and the current ratings for both fighters. If your goal is to achieve accurate simulations, the current ratings for these fighters seem to work.

I'm not going to argue about whether one guy fought in a tougher era than another and therefore had more or less knockouts. With the exception of the Ali-Frazier-Foreman era, the heavyweight division has seldom been overloaded with talent. When James J. Jeffries retired as undefeated champion in 1905, he named the top two contenders to fight for his title as Jack Root and Marvin Hart. Not exactly world beaters, but probably the best available candidates at the time. What we're seeing today isn't really anything new. Look at the top ten list during the reigns of Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, and Rocky Marciano. It doesn't look any better than today's list under current champion Vitali Klitschko.

[Kevin]

I watched the fight Saturday night and was very disappointed. Why don't heavyweights bother to get in shape anymore? 270 lbs at 6-1? Take up sumo instead! Even Vitali looked a little soft down the back and around the middle.

I would agree that Vitali is the best of the heavywights right now, but unfortunately that is an indictment of the division. It seems the best athletes now play other sports, so boxing is only left with showcase fighters in the lower weight classes.