Truth about the future of OOTP

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally Posted by Slackker

Yes, Markus is allowed to make mistakes. However, generally admitting a mistake is the best way to go about mending fences. Had there been a post that said "Sorry guys, H2H is a giant pain and I don't think I'll be able to code it into the current design." I doubt the "backlash" would be this severe on that topic. I haven't seen such a post. Aside from which.. a lot of people don't care about H2H, and are more concerned with the major update to the game not being given any attention, or even the illusion of attention. It just so happens that it was set to coincide with H2H, and therefore it's mentioned as well. Most people find it more than just coincidence that this all happened after SI came into the mix. Personally, I find it a sign of things to come.

It's the communication that keeps a lot of us interested in OOTP, and now we're reduced to reading completely unprofessional potshots like "I hope you don't raise your kids this way" from some people, and absolutely nothing from others. The customers, like it or not, don't have to act professionally. When we opened our wallets we also bought the right to whine about every little thing.

This is probably the smartest thing that's been written in this thread, or any of its predecessors, to date.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by twins15

Who said Markus was a bad guy?

No one did. We've been pointing out what needs to be done, and someone keeps trying to turn it into a popularity referendum.

Stipulated: Markus is a great guy.

Also Stipulated: OOTP6 is buggy, has a weak AI and insufficient PbP, needs a major update/overhaul, and has no manual or H2H.

Neither of these facts are related to the other.

[DiMaggio5CF]

Originally Posted by Henry

I had to respond to this... so, I assume folks are not allowed to make mistakes or misjudgements. Markus is a bad guy because his hopes and dreams are greater than what he can accomplish? He's failed, thus there should be retribution.

I hope you don't raise your kids this way.

Markus is human. He does make mistakes. Sometimes his goals are higher than what he can do.

But in that case, he must still honor his commitments. If he can't come through with what he promised when he promised it, it's only fair to give us our money back. But if he doesn't want to give back the money, then he must find a way to stick to his promises and fullfill his obligations. And if he can't/won't do either, then he should never make those promises in the first place.

This really isn't a hard concept. We're not asking for the impossible. All we're asking for is common sense and a little customer-friendliness.

There is no reason for me to feel thankful to Markus when I paid him for the job. If he gives me my money back, then I will thank him profusely and I will gladly accept whatever game he gives me. Until then, I have purchased his product with certain promises made, and if I an unhappy, then I have every right to voice this displeasure. At the very least, Markus should do everything possible to keep communication wide open.

And you looking down on us for it and copping an attitude is only making it worse.

By the way, I hope you don't raise your kids this way -- to look down on people who don't share your feelings and defend those who don't honor their commitments.

[Henry]

It's amazing how one can be misunderstood, or one can attempt to say one thing yet have it understood another way. All I was trying to do was to explain that Markus will make every effort to complete this game as promised, and the constant reminders that it is not yet done don't help.

If I insulted anyone in any way, I apologize. It was not my intent. I too get angry and frustrated and I think today was one of my worst.

It's been a great run on these boards and I've had a lot of fun. All of you love this game as much as I do, I'm sure. We just don't agree on a number of details on how to move on from here without being overly aggressive.

In any case, I'm sorry.

[Malleus Dei]

Guys, can we please leave the personal stuff (raising kids, no one values my opinion, Markus this or that, etc.) out of this discussion?

We have some real problems here. Let's focus on them and not on personalities.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Guys, can we please leave the personal stuff (raising kids, no one values my opinion, Markus this or that, etc.) out of this discussion?

We have some real problems here. Let's focus on them and not on personalities.

Agreed. I'm not happy about this version of the game, and am worried about getting things fixed. Angry accusations back and forth are not helping get this accomplished.

In my opinion, it's completely appropriate to hold Markus' feet to the fire in a professional sense for the problems with the game, but remember that we all want the same thing here: the best OOTP we can get. Markus has created a masterpiece, considering he started from scratch. We're just trying to get him to live up to his aspirations and our expectations.

[ehale911]

Alright, I don’t really post, but I do read and figured I’d throw in y two cents because I’ve read enough of these threads and had the urge to comment.

I’ve been playing OOTP since version 3 and have had a great time doing it. It has always been the game I get the most use out of and I always enjoy it. Version 6 is the first time that I’ve ever lost interest in the game. I was pretty happy with version 5, so I was reluctant to get 6, but the list of new features, including head to head (which I will get to momentarily) sold me. The lower price and the reputation Markus had built up made me not even think twice about preordering.

From the start I had problems. I ended up downloading it a day or two after its release and immediately had problems running it. I ended up solving that after a few days of messing around with it, so it wasn’t a huge deal. However, in the meantime I was able to read the forums and see how buggy the game was and decided to hold off on playing it. Eventually the patches came out and others were saying that some of the issues were fixed, so I decided to give it a try.

Overall, the game is playable. Unfortunately for me, the bugs and poor AI have once again made me stop playing. Lots of the issues with the game are things I’ve experienced since 3, as others have made well known, and the fact that they are still around is borderline ridiculous.

Now the whole head to head thing is has been a huge turnoff. I would have bought the game even if head to head wasn’t promised, but I was looking forward to the feature and recommended several friends whom had never played the game to purchase it because of the addition of head to head. I assured them that the product had a great history and was well worth the money. Regrettably, they aren’t real happy with their purchase at this point.

Now I understand that this is a small business, however, when you market the game as including something and take money from people based on the fact that the product will include it, you better include it. This is tantamount to EA putting that MVP has online play on the box, only to go home and get the game and see that there is no online play. Being that is a download only game, whatever the website says is included in the game is basically equivalent to a features list on the game box. From the outset, if Markus wasn’t 100% positive he could get the head to head to work, he should have just said “With the future possibility of online head to head game play” that would have solved a lot of problems. Instead, he listed it as an included feature which, to me at least, means that he is guaranteeing that it will be there. Not including it is false advertising and simply bad business.

Now, I’m not saying Markus is a bad guy, so don’t think that I am. In fact, everything I’ve seen indicates the opposite. He just seems to have gotten in over his head a bit. The unfortunate part is, rather than keeping an open dialogue and keeping everyone informed on the board, as he’s done in the past, it seems he has just distanced himself from everything here. I understand he works for SI now and has obligations to work for them, however, as paying customers of his, he has an obligation to work for us as well. Not that I think that anyone cares, but I, like others have posted before, will not be purchasing his future product until others can verify that it works as it should and includes everything that he has said will be included.

Sorry to post a novel on a topic that has been discussed ad nauseam, but I’ve just been really frustrated with what has happened with this version. This is the first time I’ve felt like I wasted my money on an OOTP product and it is very disappointing and I was more excited about this version than any other version in the past.

[SoxWin]

Originally Posted by Henry

Ok. Excuse me for stating my opinion which seems to be in the minority, and thus unimportant.

Just a couple things before I leave...

Sox, It may seem I'm the only one taking this personal - maybe becasue I'm the only one that bothers to respond But please don't tell me the majority of posts this past couple weeks wasn't "personal" as far as Markus was concerned.

It seems my opinions, even as an individual, are not popular with the crowd, so I'll just keep them to myself.

Enough said,

Henry. Your opinion is no less or more important then mine. We should, and so far have, been allowed to voice them. Democracy at it's finest.

I personally think you're reading too much into the posts of those who are slightly, or very disappointed with the game and especially, the direction it seems to be taking. I see people who aren't happy that promised updates have been "back seated" for a couple of months now, and they're voicing their displeasure as paying customers. I don't see any posts calling for "retribution" on a personal level, no one here has threatened Markus in any way. They're unhappy with the company.

I'm somewhat happy with OOTP, it's got it's flaws, but in some ways, it's an improvement over past versions. I play in an online league and have a solo league where I play out every game. I enjoy both experiences but I could be enjoying them so much more I suspect had this project been given sufficient time. The ingame AI infuriates me at times but I like the new DIPS engines and the 40 man rosters rules, though not perfect, do add a new level to the game v5 didn't have.

Please though, as a paying customer since v2, don't try to tell me this level of non communication between not only Markus and the board, but apparently Markus and the mods has ever been this low. Explanations like he hasn't had enough time do bug me as a paying customer though.

If I told a client I'd complete a project in a week and nothing was there after 5 months of me letting the answering machine take all his calls and getting nothing done. You bet your ass I'd be canned, and he'd have a right to bitch about it. That's really what this is all about, and there's nothing personal about that.

[CaramonLS]

I think the Fan Bois need to tone it down a notch.

This is a business and you have to deliver your product AS YOU PROMISED to your paying customers.

If you cannot deliver on those promises you are making - DO NOT MAKE THEM.

This is a very simple concept here.

If I goto my boss and tell him I am going to have something done, I can't not do it in the time frame that I promised him.

These are all very simple concepts here.

You cannot make false promises to your paying clientel.

I also think part of the issue is communication as well. If something is not going to get done in time, or some other things that people have been excepting - We want to know. Being left in the dark is not fun at all, and if you are not going to deliver, then tell us.

[disposableheros]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

I think the Fan Bois need to tone it down a notch.

i think all the Haters need to tone it down as well

[crackpott]

Henry -

You seem to believe that because Markus will get around to the next update, that makes everything okay. But put yourself in the mindset of a customer.

You go out to a restaurant to eat. You make your order, and expect your meal in 20-30 minutes. 40 minutes later, you start wondering what's happening. After an hour, you start getting a little annoyed. The longer you have to wait the more angry you get, and to top it off, they haven't bothered informing you WHY your food is not ready, just kept you waiting with the waitress occasionally saying "Sorry, it'll come eventually." Wait... that's probably inaccurate. More likely "Stop complaining. Our chef just came here from another restaurant, so deal with it."

...I don't see how you can pretend that nothing is wrong with how OOTP6 has been handled so far.

[Eckstein 4 Prez]

^^^ Gets it.

As I recall, there were two big updates for V5, one sometime from mid-April to early May, and one in the late summer/early fall.

So far, we're still waiting for the update which was originally predicted to take "a few weeks." It's been five months now since the game came out, and all we've gotten are the patches that fix game-crashing bugs.

Unacceptable.

[Dagrims]

Originally Posted by crackpott

You go out to a restaurant to eat. You make your order, and expect your meal in 20-30 minutes. 40 minutes later, you start wondering what's happening. After an hour, you start getting a little annoyed. The longer you have to wait the more angry you get, and to top it off, they haven't bothered informing you WHY your food is not ready, just kept you waiting with the waitress occasionally saying "Sorry, it'll come eventually." Wait... that's probably inaccurate. More likely "Stop complaining. Our chef just came here from another restaurant, so deal with it."

Plus, the menu has changed significantly at the restaurant and you're trying to find out what the various food choices are and what ingredients have gone into them, but the new menu hasn't been released yet. You can find out some information from a menu you've saved from a visit you made last year, but you have to search the restaurant and ask other diners what they've eaten to find out more about the new items.

Now I'm hungry.

[rem]

Plus, the menu has changed significantly at the restaurant and you're trying to find out what the various food choices are and what ingredients have gone into them, but the new menu hasn't been released yet. You can find out some information from a menu you've saved from a visit you made last year, but you have to search the restaurant and ask other diners what they've eaten to find out more about the new items.

LMAO.

[twins15]

Originally Posted by Dagrims

Plus, the menu has changed significantly at the restaurant and you're trying to find out what the various food choices are and what ingredients have gone into them, but the new menu hasn't been released yet. You can find out some information from a menu you've saved from a visit you made last year, but you have to search the restaurant and ask other diners what they've eaten to find out more about the new items.

Now I'm hungry.

I'll have the banana and pie special with that!

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by matskralc

And Henry, you seem to be forgetting about that little "financial coeffecient" flap. Something that was promised and undelivered.

Wait a minute, where was it ever promised, as in guaranteed, absolutely postive, 100% definite that that feature was going to be included. Maybe I'm remembering this wrong, but I'm pretty certain it was high on the list of hopes for it to be included, and that in the plans, but I do not ever recall seeing it touted as an absolute, iron-clad lock that it would be there.

Originally Posted by matskralc

I spent my high school years working for a butcher in his early 50s that runs his own shop. Meat, bakery, catering, he does it all. And it's him and his wife.

Originally Posted by crackpott

You go out to a restaurant to eat. You make your order, and expect your meal in 20-30 minutes. 40 minutes later, you start wondering what's happening.

These analogies are fair to a point, but it must also be remembered that the computer gaming industry is also different as well, just as the automotive industry is not the same as the publishing industry is not the same as the baking industry. While there may be some business operational similarities, there are also differences, in procedures, in practices, in capabilities, and so forth.

Take the airline industry, for example. One of the little things which is standard operating procedure in that industry is that an airline can, and often does, sell more tickets on a flight than it has seats on the aircraft. Why do they do this? Because the margin on profit in the business is slim, and every seat empty is lost revenue. Since most of the time there are always a few no-shows for a flight, overselling the flight guarantees the airline that the flight should be as full as possible. And if there are the normal number of no-shows, then everything's all right.

But what happens if there aren't? You end up with more passengers with tickets for a flight than there are seats on the aircraft. You end up with passengers who paid money for a specific flight leaving at a specific time being told that they can't get on that flight because it's already full due to being oversold and they're going to be bumped. This happens all the time.

And the only thing you get is an apology for overselling the flight and that they'll try to get you on to the next flight (assuming it doesn't end up having too many people trying to get on it as well in which case you may get bumped again).

People may hate this policy, but unless enough folks complain to lawmakers so that a law gets passed banning an airline from selling more tickets than it has seats, it's not going to change because the economics of the industry essentially demand that an airline follow this practice.

In the computer gaming industry, problems such as have been discussed here are a part of the industry. They may be widely hated, but they're a part of it nonetheless. Writing software is not like other businesses where the procedures and timetables may be much more predictable. Hell, just about every major piece of gaming software misses it's original release date target due the complexities involved in its development. "Half-Life 2" was to have shipped for Christmas of 2003, and here it is in Sept. 2004 and folks are still waiting for it.

I wish the industry operated better, but it just seems to be something inherent in it that makes the litany of issues mentioned in this thread all too common. Perhaps it will eventually change, but I expect it will continue on in much the same way. The best defence here is to be a cautious customer.

I've been a computer game player for 15 years now. I got into it when it was still in its earliest days. I've seen it all over the years, from the good to the awful. And I learned long ago to be as dispassionate as possible when it comes time to drop the dollars on a game. Advertising, supposed features, past peformance, etc., count for almost nothing. Take every and all claims with a grain of salt. Don't assume something will be there until it's actually there. Plans change. technical challenges get in the way, and so on. Basically, keep your expectations low, or at least, don't let them get too far ahead. Perhaps that's a jaded or cynical way of looking at the business, but it's one borne by years of experience.

There's a saying related to writing and plays which I think applies: "If it's not on the page, it's not on the stage." If it's not in the game as it was released, don't assume that it'll be there later on, no matter what is said by whomever.

I certainly understand some of the frustration and anger that's been expressed around here lately. But I think some folks let their enthusiasm for the game and its past incarnations get in the way of a healthy skepticism. Understandable, and I've made that mistake myself on occasion with other games, but it is something to be avoided. It'll spare you a lot of game buying frustration in the future.

Anyway, with all that being said, I'm taking, as always, the wait-and-see approach. I'm not prepared to say it's all done and over with yet, but neither am I prepared to say it'll all end to most folks' satisfaction. It will though be interesting to see which way it all plays out.

[rem]

Take the airline industry, for example. One of the little things which is standard operating procedure in that industry is that an airline can, and often does, sell more tickets on a flight than it has seats on the aircraft. Why do they do this? Because the margin on profit in the business is slim, and every seat empty is lost revenue. Since most of the time there are always a few no-shows for a flight, overselling the flight guarantees the airline that the flight should be as full as possible. And if there are the normal number of no-shows, then everything's all right.

But what happens if there aren't? You end up with more passengers with tickets for a flight than there are seats on the aircraft. You end up with passengers who paid money for a specific flight leaving at a specific time being told that they can't get on that flight because it's already full due to being oversold and they're going to be bumped. This happens all the time.

And the only thing you get is an apology for overselling the flight and that they'll try to get you on to the next flight (assuming it doesn't end up having too many people trying to get on it as well in which case you may get bumped again)

Maybe I'm just being argumentative but can't you:

A) Buy a guaranteed seat? (Maybe they oversell that too)
B) Get their early?

Also, it's been my experience that you get a free ticket for enough flight (but maybe that's the norm) and wouldn't you still pay for your ticket if you don't show?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by remangiii

Also, it's been my experience that you get a free ticket for enough flight (but maybe that's the norm) and wouldn't you still pay for your ticket if you don't show?

It's been awhile, but as I recall if you elect to give up your seat so that someone else who would be bumped can instead fly, then the airline may give you a little something as a way of saying thanks.

As to tickets, in most cases the fine print says something to the effect that you can't get a refund within 7 days of the flight. This is why there is trip insurance, so that if something happens to keep you from flying the insurance will cover your loss. But as far as I remember airline gets to keep the fare.

[phenom]

Originally Posted by crackpott

You go out to a restaurant to eat. You make your order, and expect your meal in 20-30 minutes. 40 minutes later, you start wondering what's happening. After an hour, you start getting a little annoyed. The longer you have to wait the more angry you get, and to top it off, they haven't bothered informing you WHY your food is not ready, just kept you waiting with the waitress occasionally saying "Sorry, it'll come eventually." Wait... that's probably inaccurate. More likely "Stop complaining. Our chef just came here from another restaurant, so deal with it."

Yet you keep going back to the same restaurant.

At the risk of being thrashed by the likes of mats and others, I wonder what the alternative is? I'm not sure another baseball sim matches the complexity of OOTP, but that, in itself, can be a double-edged sword. Maybe the urgency with which to improve the product succumbs to the overall superiority the game has, based on features alone, if even only subconsciously. For $35, I'd say it's well worth it, at least until prices start to lower a la ESPN NFL 2K5.

On that note, as a long-time Madden player, I bought 2K5 mostly because it was $20. To me, it was much less the game Madden is, but was well worth the $20. For $50, I'd've been miffed, but for $20, I'm pretty happy.

Anyway, I guess I have two points here: A)If you find yourself continually dissatisfied with each new release of the game, then I wonder why you continue to buy it? and 2)Once a potential customer becomes a paying customer, it's hardly unreasonable to expect promised features in a reasonable amount of time.

As a side note, my gameplay hasn't been too affected by the bugs that are mentioned on this board. Certainly some have been an annoyance, but none have made me question my purchase in any way at all. It is likely, however, that I'm not as hardcore an OOTPer as several others, so I can certainly understand the frustration. Add to that the fact that we were probably assuming much work was being done to address these problems, only to get a post from Markus asking what the bugs are.

With my first point, if things like that continue, I'd assume the frustration of the paying customer will be heard when they stop paying.

[Oneida]

I'm a "realist" in the sense that I know things will never be 100% and strive to find enjoyment in what I do get

This is anyone who has been playing computer games more than a week, i would think, i read first page of this post, and all i see is whining, god i hope i dont sound like this as far as ITP is concerned