Rate your GM - Page 3

Kezzek · 03-08-2004, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipaway
The Twins haven't developed a single super star recently, with Johan Santana the only potential one. And among all the players mentioned, David Ortiz got the best single season performance overall, and Ryan let him go.

What are you talking about, Skipaway? Your post is bizarre.

1. David Ortiz had ONE decent season is a larger market. Cue the hype machine. He spent years doing a mediocre job in a smaller market and you didn't hear anything about him. Justly so. Send him to Boston, where he's effective on an already prominent offense, and suddenly he's a superstar?!

Code:

Batting   Glossary 

 Year Ag Tm  Lg  G   AB    R    H   2B 3B  HR  RBI  SB CS  BB  SO   BA   OBP   SLG   TB   SH  SF IBB HBP GDP 
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
 1997 21 MIN AL  15   49   10   16   3  0   1    6   0  0   2  19  .327  .353  .449   22   0   0   0   0   1
 1998 22 MIN AL  86  278   47   77  20  0   9   46   1  0  39  72  .277  .371  .446  124   0   4   3   5   8
 1999 23 MIN AL  10   20    1    0   0  0   0    0   0  0   5  12  .000  .200  .000    0   0   0   0   0   2
 2000 24 MIN AL 130  415   59  117  36  1  10   63   1  0  57  81  .282  .364  .446  185   0   6   2   0  13
 2001 25 MIN AL  89  303   46   71  17  1  18   48   1  0  40  68  .234  .324  .475  144   1   2   8   1   6
 2002 26 MIN AL 125  412   52  112  32  1  20   75   1  2  43  87  .272  .339  .500  206   0   8   0   3   5
 2003 27 BOS AL 128  448   79  129  39  2  31  101   0  0  58  83  .288  .369  .592  265   0   2   8   1   9

Two words: Over. Hyped.

2. The Twins don't develop "superstars" but I'd say Torii Hunter is closer to this label than Johan Santana. In my mind, developing a strong organization and squad is the better benchmark for a GM than developing "superstars". The Twins have numerous minor leaguers (Mauer, Cuddyer, Restovich, Morneau, Balfour, Durbin, Moses, Crain) are all premium prospects. Solid organization, top to bottom.

Teflon · 03-08-2004, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipaway
The Twins haven't developed a single super star recently, with Johan Santana the only potential one. And among all the players mentioned, David Ortiz got the best single season performance overall, and Ryan let him go.

Ortiz was probably not as valuable to the Twins as Skip thinks because Ortiz was an average fielder at best (being generous there) - which is probably not a big deal for a team like the A's or RedSox but was going to be a liability in the Metrodome, especially as he aged. He would have been too expensive of a player for the Twins to keep to merely DH - especially when youngsters like Cuddyer, Restovich, and LaCroy would be hurting for at-bats. Ortiz had also shown to be injury-prone, another factor leading to his being expendable. He had a great year for the Red Sox to be sure. I still think the Twins would have made the same decision, on him, though, knowing that.

The fact that the Twins non-superstars have been as effective as the A's over the last three years would then suggest that Mr. Ryan would be Mr. Beane's better since he must obviously know how to make the assemblage surpass the sum of the parts. I would never try to suggest that, though, so I would merely stick with the assertion that the players I mentioned are probably better than Skip believes and that Billy Beane would probably take any of them, if offered. By the way, why would you chide Ryan for not signing David Ortiz but somehow not similarly castigate Oakland for letting Tejada and Giambi leave with Chavez soon to follow? Seems like those would have been easier decisions to make than Ortiz.

Skipaway · 03-08-2004, 02:02 PM

The part that was overstated is the 8/8 rating. Perhaps 5 for hitting and 5 for pitching is more appropriate.

That would be quite fitting since the Twins are 6th on offense and 8th on defense in AL last season. In 2002, 9th and 6th. In 2001, 8th and 7th. Quite middle of the road.

Don't be fooled by the weak central division.

Skipaway · 03-08-2004, 02:05 PM

Oh, since the A's were mentioned, they are 4th and 2nd in 2001, 8th and 2nd in 2002, 9th and 1st in 2003. Apparently much better than the Twins. They are just in a tougher division.

If Ryan is 8/8, then Beane would be 10/15?!?

Skipaway · 03-08-2004, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kezzek
What are you talking about, Skipaway? Your post is bizarre.

1. David Ortiz had ONE decent season is a larger market. Cue the hype machine. He spent years doing a mediocre job in a smaller market and you didn't hear anything about him. Justly so. Send him to Boston, where he's effective on an already prominent offense, and suddenly he's a superstar?!
Two words: Over. Hyped.

You know there is only one reason I have to mention David Ortiz. Out of all the "stars" Twins got, nobody ever got OPS+ over 126.

Career Peak:
Jacque Jones 125
Torii Hunter 126
Dustan Mohr 105
Cristian Guzman 111
Corey Koskie 121
Doug Mientkiewicz 123
A.J. Pierzynski 114
( Even Shannon Stewart got only 123 in that amazing half season with the Twins)

And you know what? David Ortiz peaked at 122 with the Twins, and got 144 last season.

I am in no sense saying David Ortiz is a superstar, but out of all the players Twins have had these few years, only one of them ever had a single season with superstar stats. That happens to be David Ortiz, with the Red Sox.

Kezzek · 03-08-2004, 02:38 PM

You think Ortiz would have had the same season in the Dome? Not a chance.

You pointed it out yourself: 122 peak with the Twins.

He's been outdone by Jones, Hunter, Mientkiewicz, Stewart and nearly equalled by Koskie and Pierzynski. Tell me again why we should be lamenting the loss of Ortiz?

matskralc · 03-08-2004, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kezzek
You think Ortiz would have had the same season in the Dome? Not a chance.

You pointed it out yourself: 122 peak with the Twins.

He's been outdone by Jones, Hunter, Mientkiewicz, Stewart and nearly equalled by Koskie and Pierzynski. Tell me again why we should be lamenting the loss of Ortiz?

OPS+ is park adjusted. So it's reasonable to assume he would have had just as productive a season in Minnesota.

Skipaway · 03-08-2004, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kezzek
You think Ortiz would have had the same season in the Dome? Not a chance.

You pointed it out yourself: 122 peak with the Twins.

He's been outdone by Jones, Hunter, Mientkiewicz, Stewart and nearly equalled by Koskie and Pierzynski. Tell me again why we should be lamenting the loss of Ortiz?

Well, perhaps I should be more specific about my point. The Twins' offense sucks. I just use Ortiz to show how much they suck.

And remember, what I listed was the peak value!

Career average?
Jacque Jones 103
Torii Hunter 97
Dustan Mohr 91
Cristian Guzman 75
Corey Koskie 115
Doug Mientkiewicz 106
A.J. Pierzynski 105
Luis Rivas 81

Amazingly mediocre! Especially the "potential superstar" Torii Hunter! Hunter's defense is far behind Mike Cameron by all measures ( UZR, fielding runs, you name it), and hit not as good as Cameron. Is Mike Cameron a superstar?

By the way, David Ortiz career OPS+ 116.

And I don't know what's the point with the Dome. OPS+ is park adjusted. Perhaps you meant to say the protection of the Red Sox lineup is far superior?

Kezzek · 03-08-2004, 03:02 PM

*shrug* Ok, cool.

The point is though that Ryan is making good decisions, drafting excellent prospects, building a fine organization and is doing great at scouting hitting/pitching.

I agreed with Teflon's 8/8. I could live with a 7/7 or something similar. I think Skip is vastly underrating at 5/5.

Finally, I really think Ortiz's season was a fluke. I liked Ortiz too. Funny guy, and a great addition to the clubhouse. But we'll see from here on out if he can put up similar numbers or if he'll return to the form that Twins fans were VERY familiar with (injuries and underperformance).

Ryan: 8/8

SoxWin · 03-08-2004, 03:06 PM

Can we get back to the GM rating please?

Kezzek · 03-08-2004, 03:06 PM

Btw, Skip, you can stop putting quotes around things to make it look like I've made the statements.

The only person here who is using the terms superstar and the like is you. I even put quotes around my reference to "superstars" because as I pointed out--the Twins have none!

draven085 · 03-08-2004, 03:19 PM

Just imagine how much better the Twins organization would look had they been able to afford Prior.

Kezzek · 03-08-2004, 03:28 PM

As much as I think Mauer is gonna be bona fide SUPERSTAR!!!!111, having Prior and keeping Pierzynski would have been sweet.

mlyons · 03-08-2004, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by draven085
No mention of Williamson's dominance in the playoffs? A 1.13 ERA and 0.75 WHIP are pretty damn good. I wouldn't go about judging the acquisition of a player on 20 innings anyway. Kim is the #5 starter this year. I would be very surprised if he isn't the best #5 starter in the league, and quite possibly the Sox 3rd best starter by the end of the year.

I agree that it's too early to tell on any of his recent pitching acquisitions -- they could pan out to be great, or they could be busts. We won't be able to tell until the end of this season about Williamson/Kim/Schilling/Foulke. My point was that it isn't really a good idea to use them as examples of Epstein judging pitching yet.

(BTW, to say 20 innings aren't enough to judge a pitcher's performance after raving about the 10 or so he pitched in the playoffs seems a little odd.)

Skipaway · 03-08-2004, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by draven085
Just imagine how much better the Twins organization would look had they been able to afford Prior.

That's why I think the way we are trying to assign ratings here is pointless. There are way too many factors, known or unknown to us, in a GM's decision process, and no two teams are the same. Who really knew what would have happened if these GMs trade places?

What's used in game is just scouting, which is even more vague! Who can tell if bad decisions were caused by bad scouting or bad managing skills?

Personally I'd say the easiest way is just check the team offense and defense numbers for the past few years regardless who the GM were and assign the ratings by that.

Skipaway · 03-08-2004, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kezzek

The point is though that Ryan is making good decisions, drafting excellent prospects, building a fine organization and is doing great at scouting hitting/pitching.

I agreed with Teflon's 8/8. I could live with a 7/7 or something similar. I think Skip is vastly underrating at 5/5.

So what would the Twins would have done if they are in AL west or AL east? Perhaps 3th~4th place every year. Wouldn't 7/7 or 8/8 overrating? Or what kind of rating would you give J.P. Riccardi or Bill Stoneman? 10/5 and 8/8?

Kezzek · 03-08-2004, 09:45 PM

What would they have done in the other divisions?

Got better draft picks.

magnet · 03-09-2004, 06:32 PM

i made a post a few months back that showed that the AL central hasnt been as weak as it was last year consistently even in this decade. im too lazy to dig up that post, but check the league standings in the AL central since 2000, and you'll see what im talking about.

Skipaway · 03-09-2004, 08:36 PM

Is that so?

AL central

2003
vs. AL east 73:95
vs. AL west 68:104

2002
vs. AL east 73:95
vs. AL west 69:103

magnet · 03-09-2004, 08:58 PM

2000 American League

East Division
Team W L WL% GB
NewYorkY NYY 87 74 .540 --
BostonRS BOS 85 77 .525 2.5
Toronto TOR 83 79 .512 4.5
Baltmore BAL 74 88 .457 13.5
TampaBay TBD 69 92 .429 18.0

Central Division
Team W L WL% GB
ChicagoW CHW 95 67 .586 --
Clevelnd CLE 90 72 .556 5.0
Detroit DET 79 83 .488 16.0
KansasCy KCR 77 85 .475 18.0
Minnesta MIN 69 93 .426 26.0

West Division
Team W L WL% GB
Oakland OAK 91 70 .565 --
Seattle SEA 91 71 .562 0.5
Anaheim ANA 82 80 .506 9.5
Texas TEX 71 91 .438 20.5

2001 American League

East Division
Team W L WL% GB
NewYorkY NYY 95 65 .594 --
BostonRS BOS 82 79 .509 13.5
Toronto TOR 80 82 .494 16.0
Baltmore BAL 63 98 .391 32.5
TampaBay TBD 62 100 .383 34.0

Central Division
Team W L WL% GB
Clevelnd CLE 91 71 .562 --
Minnesta MIN 85 77 .525 6.0
ChicagoW CHW 83 79 .512 8.0
Detroit DET 66 96 .407 25.0
KansasCy KCR 65 97 .401 26.0

West Division
Team W L WL% GB
Seattle SEA 116 46 .716 --
Oakland OAK 102 60 .630 14.0
Anaheim ANA 75 87 .463 41.0
Texas TEX 73 89 .451 43.0

03-08-2004, 02:02 PM	#43
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	The part that was overstated is the 8/8 rating. Perhaps 5 for hitting and 5 for pitching is more appropriate. That would be quite fitting since the Twins are 6th on offense and 8th on defense in AL last season. In 2002, 9th and 6th. In 2001, 8th and 7th. Quite middle of the road. Don't be fooled by the weak central division. __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

03-08-2004, 02:05 PM	#44
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	Oh, since the A's were mentioned, they are 4th and 2nd in 2001, 8th and 2nd in 2002, 9th and 1st in 2003. Apparently much better than the Twins. They are just in a tougher division. If Ryan is 8/8, then Beane would be 10/15?!? __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

03-08-2004, 02:38 PM	#46
Kezzek All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Keyboard - frantically typing in subtle insults to raise my self-esteem Posts: 973	You think Ortiz would have had the same season in the Dome? Not a chance. You pointed it out yourself: 122 peak with the Twins. He's been outdone by Jones, Hunter, Mientkiewicz, Stewart and nearly equalled by Koskie and Pierzynski. Tell me again why we should be lamenting the loss of Ortiz? __________________ - Kez, P.E.

03-08-2004, 03:02 PM	#49
Kezzek All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Keyboard - frantically typing in subtle insults to raise my self-esteem Posts: 973	shrug Ok, cool. The point is though that Ryan is making good decisions, drafting excellent prospects, building a fine organization and is doing great at scouting hitting/pitching. I agreed with Teflon's 8/8. I could live with a 7/7 or something similar. I think Skip is vastly underrating at 5/5. Finally, I really think Ortiz's season was a fluke. I liked Ortiz too. Funny guy, and a great addition to the clubhouse. But we'll see from here on out if he can put up similar numbers or if he'll return to the form that Twins fans were VERY familiar with (injuries and underperformance). Ryan: 8/8 __________________ - Kez, P.E.

03-08-2004, 03:06 PM	#50
SoxWin Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Blissful ignorance Posts: 3,315	Can we get back to the GM rating please? __________________ It's called partying. When you do a lot of it, you're bound to be places where the police show up. I smoke a lot of pot and drink a lot of beer. I also graduated Suma Cum Laude. ****ing sue me. - Luis Rivera

03-08-2004, 03:19 PM	#52
draven085 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: New Jersey Posts: 2,074	Just imagine how much better the Twins organization would look had they been able to afford Prior.

03-08-2004, 03:28 PM	#53
Kezzek All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Keyboard - frantically typing in subtle insults to raise my self-esteem Posts: 973	As much as I think Mauer is gonna be bona fide SUPERSTAR!!!!111, having Prior and keeping Pierzynski would have been sweet. __________________ - Kez, P.E.

03-08-2004, 09:45 PM	#57
Kezzek All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Keyboard - frantically typing in subtle insults to raise my self-esteem Posts: 973	What would they have done in the other divisions? Got better draft picks. __________________ - Kez, P.E.

03-09-2004, 06:32 PM	#58
magnet Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,029	i made a post a few months back that showed that the AL central hasnt been as weak as it was last year consistently even in this decade. im too lazy to dig up that post, but check the league standings in the AL central since 2000, and you'll see what im talking about.

03-09-2004, 08:36 PM	#59
Skipaway Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Where you live Posts: 11,017	Is that so? AL central 2003 vs. AL east 73:95 vs. AL west 68:104 2002 vs. AL east 73:95 vs. AL west 69:103 __________________ Jonathan Haidt: Moral reasoning is really just a servant masquerading as a high priest.

03-09-2004, 08:58 PM	#60
magnet Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,029	2000 American League East Division Team W L WL% GB NewYorkY NYY 87 74 .540 -- BostonRS BOS 85 77 .525 2.5 Toronto TOR 83 79 .512 4.5 Baltmore BAL 74 88 .457 13.5 TampaBay TBD 69 92 .429 18.0 Central Division Team W L WL% GB ChicagoW CHW 95 67 .586 -- Clevelnd CLE 90 72 .556 5.0 Detroit DET 79 83 .488 16.0 KansasCy KCR 77 85 .475 18.0 Minnesta MIN 69 93 .426 26.0 West Division Team W L WL% GB Oakland OAK 91 70 .565 -- Seattle SEA 91 71 .562 0.5 Anaheim ANA 82 80 .506 9.5 Texas TEX 71 91 .438 20.5 2001 American League East Division Team W L WL% GB NewYorkY NYY 95 65 .594 -- BostonRS BOS 82 79 .509 13.5 Toronto TOR 80 82 .494 16.0 Baltmore BAL 63 98 .391 32.5 TampaBay TBD 62 100 .383 34.0 Central Division Team W L WL% GB Clevelnd CLE 91 71 .562 -- Minnesta MIN 85 77 .525 6.0 ChicagoW CHW 83 79 .512 8.0 Detroit DET 66 96 .407 25.0 KansasCy KCR 65 97 .401 26.0 West Division Team W L WL% GB Seattle SEA 116 46 .716 -- Oakland OAK 102 60 .630 14.0 Anaheim ANA 75 87 .463 41.0 Texas TEX 73 89 .451 43.0