Women

[Karen Lutz]

Yes, you have a point, there isnt much to the game, which is why time should be spent adding things to improve it, not silly things like female characters, it would be an arbitrary addon at best.

[RandyWolf43]

If you introduced women to the game, you would have to limit their abilities a little, don't you think? Honestly though, How many women can power a ball over the wall at Comiskey Park or into McCovery Cove? There would also be that factor of lesbian action in the bar, or their would have to be a change in the type of people that you meet in the bar.

[JW]

Originally posted by RandyWolf43
If you introduced women to the game, you would have to limit their abilities a little, don't you think?

Now you've done it, added a little bit of politically incorrrect reality into the mix. The truth is there isn't a woman alive who could play at the major league level, and that won't change. If you want to truly understand the physiological differences between men and women, you need to study men and women's track and field. Although world class female track stars perform better than maybe 99% of the male population, the truth is that female track and field stars would have a hard time winning your average male high school track meet. Don't believe me; check the female world records; they are basically equivalent to very good high school male times. So while the elite women athletes may be trained to a point where they are better than most of the male general population, they still fall far below the standard of the elite male athletes and will continue to fall below that level. It is just physiology, no matter what some feminists woud have us believe. And, believe me, if women could compete with men physicallly, don't you think the feminists would have already forced women onto the football teams at the service academies (Army, Air Force, Navy). But you haven't seen them push for that. The reason is obvious.

If women ever do get into the big leagues, it will simply be because the pool of male athletes wanting to play the game has diminished to the point that a female can compete, either through unlimited expansion or thru a lack of male interest in the game. Although it might be possible for a female to master some arcane skill that does not require great physical strength; the only one I can think of offhand would be the knuckleball.

[bcimmet]

The point Skipaway seems to be making is that by adding female characters to this game, the game will sell better to the 15-25yo male demographic.

This argument is as empty as suggesting that a politician promote McDonald's just because a lot of people like to eat there.

There is nothing about adding women to ITP that will make the game any better, any closer to legitimate fantasy baseball, any more interesting as a simulation. The goal of the game is to create an enjoyable simulated baseball world for a single user to live out a fantasy career as a player.

If this 15-25yo target demographic is really what you're after, and you think that the way to draw them in is by having female characters, then the bottom line is that a baseball simulation game is not for them. This demographic wants a different kind of game.

The people for whom ITP (and OOTP) is targeted aren't going to care a whole lot about having female players in the game. They're going to care about baseball, developing baseball players, competing on baseball teams -- not little pornographic games in their heads about what life would be in the locker room of a AA franchise if there was a girl pitcher!!!!! (exclamation marks = sarcasm)

Seriously... it's not an argument about whether women can compete in men's sports, or whether women belong in this game. It's an argument about that the people who wish there could be women in the game are the people who need to get out of their house a little more often.

/bc

[Skipaway]

Originally posted by bcimmet
The point Skipaway seems to be making is that by adding female characters to this game, the game will sell better to the 15-25yo male demographic.

That's totally not the point I tried to make. Somebody said female characters are for female gamers, and I just pointed out that generally female characters are for male gamers.

I did NOT say or think the game will sell better by adding female characters. Personally I think it's just a very very minor feature.

As I said in one of my earlier post, ITP and OOTP are too geeky to care about the normal 15~25 male crowd. The point you tried to make was just the same.

Please read the thread more thoroughly next time.

[JW]

Wish list for future ITP iterations:
1. Animal characters, ala Air Bud.
2. Cartoon characters.
3. Pro athletes from other sports, including fantasy leagues with your favorite NFL or NBA stars.
4. Robot/droid characters.
5. Famous movie monster characters. Alien vs. Predator would make a great batter/pitcher duel.
6. Music stars. A team of country music stars, a team of rap stars, etc.
7. Survivor tv show players.
8. TV soap opera players.
9. LOTR characters. Orcs vs. Elves in the world series.
10. WWE characters.

We could go on.

[Jeff Olsen]

Originally posted by JW
If women ever do get into the big leagues, it will simply be because the pool of male athletes wanting to play the game has diminished to the point that a female can compete, either through unlimited expansion or thru a lack of male interest in the game. Although it might be possible for a female to master some arcane skill that does not require great physical strength; the only one I can think of offhand would be the knuckleball.

Did you know that there are women capable of pitching a softball at 90MPH?

[I Am The Game]

Yes, but don't they pitch at 45 feet or whatever? I know on TWIB when they have Jennie Finch throw BP to whoever she's talking to (Mike Cameron, et al) she throws her softball from 45 feet - and it is the equivilant of 100MPH from 60 feet. It's just like if you whipped the ball at 45 feet, it could be the equivilant of 90MPH if you were from 60...but if you threw from 60 you couldn't even muster 80, nevermind 90.

[fluharty]

I was talking about females as an alternate to males, not in addition. Like a basketball sim allowing you to sim the WNBA instead of restricting you to the NBA. I know, I know, there's no WMLB, but so what? I'd like to set up a historic league and sim the AAGPBL, but cannot bring myself to do so. The constant referfences to "he" and "him" ruins it.

[JW]

Originally posted by Jeff Olsen
Did you know that there are women capable of pitching a softball at 90MPH?

Which is a lot slower than the best male fast pitch softball pitchers. Men's fast pitch is dying out, but there are still leagues out there, and the best men are a lot faster than the best women. I've played men's fast pitch, and it is truly scary to be in the box against a good fast pitch pitcher. The fact remains that for most sports, women are physiologically inferior to men, no matter how much one might want that to not be so. If it wasn't so, the feminists would long ago have demanded an end to gender-segregated sports.

[RandyWolf43]

Originally posted by JW
Which is a lot slower than the best male fast pitch softball pitchers. Men's fast pitch is dying out, but there are still leagues out there, and the best men are a lot faster than the best women. I've played men's fast pitch, and it is truly scary to be in the box against a good fast pitch pitcher. The fact remains that for most sports, women are physiologically inferior to men, no matter how much one might want that to not be so. If it wasn't so, the feminists would long ago have demanded an end to gender-segregated sports.

exactly. Jenny Finch could hang with the boys, so could that Speediacchi girl from a few years ago...but thats 2 out of the hundreds and hundreds...until a woman hits a 98 mph heater from Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Bartolo Colon, Billy Wagner or Robb Nen out of a park longer than 250 feet and with a wooden bat, there should be no argument about them in the biz.

[Jeff Olsen]

Originally posted by JW
The fact remains that for most sports, women are physiologically inferior to men, no matter how much one might want that to not be so. If it wasn't so, the feminists would long ago have demanded an end to gender-segregated sports.

Perhaps, but to say it will always be so is a fallacy. "Always" is a very long time.

There are other factors at work, not just physical differences. For example, there's also generations of gender roles to overcome.

[I Am The Game]

Originally posted by RandyWolf43
exactly. Jenny Finch could hang with the boys, so could that Speediacchi girl from a few years ago...but thats 2 out of the hundreds and hundreds...until a woman hits a 98 mph heater from Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Bartolo Colon, Billy Wagner or Robb Nen out of a park longer than 250 feet and with a wooden bat, there should be no argument about them in the biz.

Well, to be fair, not exactly a lot of men could do that either, lol

[JW]

Originally posted by Jeff Olsen
Perhaps, but to say it will always be so is a fallacy. "Always" is a very long time.

There are other factors at work, not just physical differences. For example, there's also generations of gender roles to overcome.

Flatly disagree. It is going to take a great deal of evolution to even out the huge physiological advantage men have in athletics or other physical endeavors. The gender role argument is a chimera. The average man has a far larger muscle mass than the average woman and is far stronger, particularly in upper body strength. While the most elite female athletes far exceed the average man in athletic ability, their abilities still are far below that of the elite male athletes and are limited by physiological. And that has nothing to do with bias or gender roles. It is just fact. Again, put the top women athletes in the world into a good high school track meet, and the women will have trouble winning against the boys, although the women would certainly dominate against a group of men picked at random. Likewise, put the WNBA allstars up against a good high school boys team and you get a good match. I've played hoops in the past in a lot of Army post gyms against women who played hoops in college, and they were, compared to the guys on the court, slow, short, and weak, but with very good skills. At best they could just hold their own against a group of regular guys like me who happened to be in really good shape. The same was true for any other mixed sports group I encountered in the Army, and these groups included some elite female athletes who were determined to prove they were better than the guys.

[fluharty]

I think if there were as many girls playing baseball in highschool and college as there are guys then some of them would be good enough to be drafted and a few would be good enough to make it to the majors. Some would even hit a few home runs, probably, since there were home run hitters in the AAGPBL, but I don't think any of them would be super-star type players, except maybe for a knuckle ball pitcher, since you don't need a lot of velocity for that. But, until every high school and college has 20 or 30 girls playing baseball, its not going to happen.

[Jeff Olsen]

Originally posted by fluharty
I think if there were as many girls playing baseball in highschool and college as there are guys then some of them would be good enough to be drafted and a few would be good enough to make it to the majors. Some would even hit a few home runs, probably, since there were home run hitters in the AAGPBL, but I don't think any of them would be super-star type players, except maybe for a knuckle ball pitcher, since you don't need a lot of velocity for that. But, until every high school and college has 20 or 30 girls playing baseball, its not going to happen.

Exactly.

Little League teams have been co-ed for some 30 years. Only time will tell if we see another AAGPBL or co-ed teams further up the ladder.

Originally posted by JW
Flatly disagree. It is going to take a great deal of evolution to even out the huge physiological advantage men have in athletics or other physical endeavors.

You're ignoring other possiblities.

[JW]

I'm going to bow out of this debate here, because it has reached the point of diminishing returns. People believe what they believe. I believe the average woman does not have anything near the physical capacity of the average man, and the elite female athlete, while far exceeding the average man, still has far less physical capacity than the elite male athlete. Here is a NASA study on the subject, devoid of ideology. LInk and excerpt:

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/spacemedicine-01b.html

Exercise Physiology
At the present time, 22 percent of the active astronaut corps are women (35 of 158). The average female astronaut is 42 years old (43 years for men) and weighs 60.7 kg (81.2 kg for men). In general, the average woman is 10 cm shorter and 13 kg lighter and has 11 percent more body fat, 8 percent less muscle mass, 10-14 percent less hemoglobin mass, and a lower level of aerobic fitness than her male counterpart. These gender differences can be expected to influence exercise capacity and thus the ability to perform specific tasks during spaceflight.

We're talking elite men but also elite women who have made a goal of excelling in a male-dominated field.

[Jeff Olsen]

"At the present time", JW. You can't say for certain that it won't change in a hundred years.

[Karen Lutz]

The basis for comparisson is sketchy at best, but according to what people know now, it is correct, but years ago the Earth was flat too, at one point, the sun revolved around the Earth, what we KNOW is almost always something we take for granted.

[dangarion]

Originally posted by fluharty
I have asked about this in the past and have never gotten a satisfactory answer. Its sad that the makers of this game choose to be descriminatory in this way. I would love to set up a league and play the history of the AAGPBL or even run one of the modern leagues like the Eastern Women's Baseball Conferance (http://home.att.net/~itsahit/).

If the makers of this game are descriminatory as you say then the makers of every other professional sports team game on the market is as well. Madden 2004, NBA 2004, Fifa 2004, High Heat Baseball and hundreds more. Don't blame the game makers for reflecting the real world. There is no reason to try to make this a political thing by claiming descrimination because a game doesn't allow you to have female players.