Depth Chart still not working correctly?

[dougk62]

Originally posted by BillyBuck
I might go to hell for what I have started on this thread.

But if I don't go to hell for starting this thread, I will surely go to hell for this:

TLWP needs to take his total of 13 posts in this forum and...wait...okay...I'm done now. Nothing like gettin' told what's what by a Fan Boy Newbie.

That is extremely funny, and you really shouldn't be headed to hell for your comments. You showed an uncommon amount of restraint and are definately in line for the coveted poster of the day award.

[clarnzz]

Now thats how I was thinking it worked.

So then if it was working correctly then the original issue brought up by Buckner would of likely occured by one of these things happening.

1) The postion player was tired 2 days in a row so the backup got back to back starts.

2) The backup is listed as a backup for both vs. RH and LH and the game the reserve should play against each handed pitcher ended up back to back.

[Sudy Nym]

I feel the need to reiterate that I never had any problem with the functionality of the depth charts, as known to me and as shown by Mr. Kuffrey. I was concerned with the specifics.

There will be more people providing input to the next manual, so I expect you'll see better explanations - but I wouldn't hold my breath too much on getting too much detail. The "fog of war" is what keeps the game "real" so to speak, and transforming it into nothing but equations would certainly destroy it.

But the game is nothing but equations. I can't be the only one rather upset by the fact that numerous "artificial" obscuring techniques are applied with the intention of making the game more "realistic." Some of us really do just want a hard numbers sim without this superfluous confusion- so please, give us options. (And "fanboys", don't tell me to play Diamond Mind, or something- I love OOTP's features and style, I just loathe the "added" masking.

That being said, certain features and intangible ratings do need to be better explained. Otherwise, they're just undocumented fluff to us, which is cluttering up the interface. I know it's come up before, more than once. But we're not asking for hard math and the pure codes- just an official and definitive explanation of their effects.

Case in point, from deh34's post:

i'm kind of torn about this because (1) an official explanation on something like what Leadership actually does for your team would be great and helpful, BUT (2) maybe it's intended to be extremely blurry and unknown just like in real life, i.e. it could hurt the game if you knew exactly that adding a Great Leader would give you an extra 5 wins or increase everyone's batting averages by 10 points or something.

Right, we don't need to know the exact statistical advantages that a "Great Leader" provides- and we don't want to know, either. However, we require a much better explanation than just whatever the forum gurus can dig up at a moment's notice.

What a feature does shouldn't be guesswork. How to use it effectively should be. But you can't even start to try to use it effectively if you don't have any real idea of what it does.

I'll write the OOTP6 manual for you, for free- but what hasn't been divulged cannot be explained.

Originally posted by BillyBuck:
For the record, I understand what you guys (Henry and Steve) are saying...I think that my confusion came about after reading the 5.11 patch update list. Clearly you can both understand how it was possible to *misunderstand* the way it was worded.

Originally posted by Henry:
Agreed. I think when you consider that "starts every 5th game" in this case had two specifically different meanings...

To Markus, a German explaining the change in his "2nd language", it simply was another way to say "20%" - and he probably was shying away from the term "20%" since it was the original source of confusion. To those of us where English is our natural language, "starts every 5th game" can, and will, (and was) taken literally.

With all due respect, the onus is certainly not on the consumer, here. There are no "two specifically different meanings"- not to us. If we're told that something is going to work this way, it needs to work that way. If not, it's the manufacturer's responsibility to either issue a correction and fix the problem immediately, or issue a professional apology (not a personal one) and re-explain the situation. If Mercedes-Benz issues a press release that is revealed to have a discrepancy due to translation or otherwise, they don't tell the customer that they're "misunderstanding it". Because that's just bad business. It's Mercedes-Benz's responsibility to check and verify their notices- it's not their customers' responsiblilty to approach what they say from every possible angle, and account for any grammatical, philosophical, or any other kinds of differences.

[BillyBuck]

And for the record (in reference to clarnzz's last post) it definitely was not #2 - so it must've been #1. Of course, it's hard to know for sure when it happens in the middle of a 7 day sim....

I just want to be sure that my best player is not sitting on the bench for any other reason than the CPU is following my instructions - or something *close* to it.

I never had these problems with OOTP4 and I have not changed how I handle my depth charts - this is why I am so confused and was so concerned in my initial post.

Henry - is it possible to save this thread's URL and show it to Markus for a quick evaluation when he gets back? I know it's long, but I am betting he could answer the questions fairly quickly.

Thanks for the props, dougk62!

[Sudy Nym]

Oh, and to the user who goes by the handle The Last Word Period:


Respectfully, man-





No offense, or anything- but some of us "adults" were attempting to have a civil conversation. I almost feel guilty "flaming" you like this, but all I have to do is go back and re-read your post, and I once again feel just about justified.

Justified or not, there's a way to tell people that you think they're wrong without being rude and boorish. I suggest that you try it.

Oh, I realize that you're probably an alias, and not actually a "newbie," as they say, at all- but I couldn't find a linkable copy of the "How about a nice warm cup of STFU!" image, so this'll have to do. Besides, you were acting like a "n00b", anyway.

In reality, I think it's horrible how some people discriminate against "new" people, solely on the basis that they are new. But I suppose you have to admit that the few "lamers" do give "newbies" a bad name.

[BillyBuck]

Hey, Sudy! How'd you get a picture of one of my neighbor's kids?

[couriers]

Originally posted by clarnzz
Yeah and maybe I might win the lottery two weeks in a row.

I never said anything to the odds of something like that happening but the possibility does exist and my example was merely to show how one instance could produce more than another.

Besides, there have been cases of people winning the lottery more than once. Therefore, the possibility exists that someone could win it twice in a row. Likely? No. Possible? Yes.

[Henry]

Originally posted by BillyBuck
Henry - is it possible to save this thread's URL and show it to Markus for a quick evaluation when he gets back? I know it's long, but I am betting he could answer the questions fairly quickly.

Yes. I'll make sure it's brought to Markus' attention.

Henry

[BillyBuck]

Thank you...it's greatly appreciated!

[BillyBuck]

Okay...I am sorry to keep this thread going but I just realized how to put something into words that i was struggling with thru this entire thread.

I primarily use the depth chart % to rest my players to prevent them from actually getting tired. Maybe i should not be, though, becuz it doesnt seem to prevent them from getting any less tired. (I derived this from realizing that my star player probably sat on the bench for back to back games becuz for 1 game he was tired and another game it was his "turn" to sit.)

Apparently, using the depth chart is only advantagous if you are trying to split playing time between two players. Maybe instead what I should be doing is set my depth chart for players such as my star player to have a sub at 0% and then he will only be subbed for when he is tired, supposedly.

I say *supposedly* becuz I swear my experience in my solo leagues have been that the CPU does not sub for tired players, but this information may be inaccurate on my part. I will need to evaluate this more closely.

But do the first 3 paragraphs up there make sense to anyone - Henry? Steve? Sorry to keep this going....Im just having a lot of trouble with this in a league.

[slic1149]

Maybe the reason you star player was out for two games was because he was serving a suspension for hitting a sausage race contestant at Miller Park. Perhaps he pissed off the manager or did any of the stupid things a player does that can cause him to miss a couple of games. Unless you set the lineup everyday this problem is unsolvable. This game says if want a guy to play around 150 games a season he will. If you have anyone other than yourself pick the lineup daily then you are getting their logic and not yours. If it is a can't lose game then make sure you know your lineup before the game starts. If you want real life results then except the fact that real life suprises you sometimes. This is an easy game to pick apart because everyone has an expectation and sometimes the game won't fulfill all of them. Sometimes I feel sorry for the folks who spend all their time trying to find a problem and miss out on what the bought the game for. I've loved this game for over 3 years I just wish some of you got to enjoy it as much as I do. Y'all are driving yourselves crazy picking at nits.

[Sudy Nym]

You've got it all wrong, slic.

We do enjoy the game. We enjoy it so much that we're interested in how it works, and would like to see improvements made to it.

We're not looking for problems- but if we notice them, or are curious about something, what's the harm in bringing something like this up? I think this is a little different than those "It's so unrealistic that I can get seven five-star prospects for this 33 year-old scrub!" threads. We just want to make the game better, and for it to work like it's supposed to- we're not bantering about minute and insignificant details.

We're not only paying customers, but community members- as such, it is both our right and duty to concern ourselves with such matters. I'm happy that you enjoy the game as it is- so do I. But I'm sure that you can appreciate that we all have a role in OOTP's future, and that's what these kinds of discussions are about.

[MiddleGA]

and for it to work like it's supposed to

Or, as it seems mostly in this case, at least to understand the way we were told it was going to work.

[Henry]

Originally posted by Sudy Nym
With all due respect, the onus is certainly not on the consumer, here. There are no "two specifically different meanings"- not to us. If we're told that something is going to work this way, it needs to work that way. If not, it's the manufacturer's responsibility to either issue a correction and fix the problem immediately, or issue a professional apology (not a personal one) and re-explain the situation. If Mercedes-Benz issues a press release that is revealed to have a discrepancy due to translation or otherwise, they don't tell the customer that they're "misunderstanding it". Because that's just bad business. It's Mercedes-Benz's responsibility to check and verify their notices- it's not their customers' responsiblilty to approach what they say from every possible angle, and account for any grammatical, philosophical, or any other kinds of differences.

With equally due respect, this is not Mercedes-Benz, it's a one man operation producing a $35 game... a far cry from a world class corporation with almost 200,000 employess selling 35 products ranging from $25,000 to $140,000. I think a little flexibility and understanding would be expected.

henry

[BillyBuck]

"trying to find a problem" - now THAT'S funny, Slic!

[obaslg]

The "20%" as you know, means 20% of the games - but does NOT necessarily mean "every fifth game". Fatigue, injuries, and the interrelationships of players who back up more than one positon can all effect this when looked at for a short number of games.

What?!

It doesn't mean that he will start every X(whatever %) game it means that over the course of the season he will start "roughly" that percentage of the teams games.

What?!!

I can't believe this. Look at this thread:
http://www.400softwarestudios.com/bo...threadid=37323

...which Henry at least shouldn't have to do, because he participated in it.

I DID test out the charts on my own back then, and that was part of my complaint - that it was left to us to beta test a new feature. One of the official testers (Kurtis) then verified my results. Markus then told us that he was fixing the problem, and later told us that he had.

Another running complaint of mine is exactly the view that you're putting forward, Steve - that all that matters is the total year numbers. That's not what matters to onliners at all - we care about what happens within a week or two. I personally would prefer a simple percentage system versus the "exactly every fifth day" system, but we have been told very clearly that a 20% sub will start every fifth day, period. In online leagues, we need to know if that's true.

Given what was said in that last long thread, it was completely inappropriate for you to jump on BillyBuck for his observation, Steve.

[obaslg]

I just tested it with fatigue off, facing all righties, and a 25% sub started exactly once every four games (specifically, games 3,7,11,15, etc.). Fatigue would certainly screw this up, because Markus did explain before that the a backup's starts due to fatigue counted against his expected starts. That is, as I understand it, if a 25% backup starts game 3 because it's his turn, but then starts game 5 because the starter is tired, the backup won't start again until game 9 (unless there's fatigue again).

I didn't test any of the original problems found with the new depth chart system.

[Henry]

First of all, I don't see how my comments from the last thread are disconnected from what I'm saying here other than here, I am stating how I think it was intended to work.

Ok. It's apparent we're not going to resolve this without Markus input, so let's address an issue we can do somthing about. I've started a new post with the intent of polling all readers as to how important a change to the substitution coding of the game is to them personally. This IS NOT a vote. As I have said in the past, all final decisions belong to Markus, but this may help him.

If you wish it changed, explain in that post how you would like it to work - not what you don't like about the current method. I am hoping that will keep the post shorter.

And I will refrain from commenting on anything there.

Henry

[slic1149]

Looks like there are some different issues for different players based on how they like to play. I don't do online leagues so it is possible I don't understand your depth chart problems. But if the lineup is too sensitive to rely on the computer manager to set the lineup for you, then it looks like entering the lineup of your choice based upon the game you are playing is the route to go. If you need that kind of control then do it yourself and quit expecting the computer to read your mind. Absolute control can only be asssured by doing the lineup yourself every day. The depth chart gives you a reasonable amount of control with a set and let it run strategy but if you want to make sure the lineup suits your plan every day then it looks like you must set it every day. Your level of control is based on your level of effort not just on the way the game is programmed.

From a purely personal stand point I appreciate the variance. No way a manager plays a player a perfect one time out of five for an entire year. The dynamics of the game preclude any such consistency. That's my view of the depth chart question but of course it's possible I'm full of sh*t.

[Henry]

slic brings up a good point... maybe the solution to this is to provide an option for game-by-game lineups for online leagues.