Same as last year, sign a free agent only to lose them to waivers days later

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by DJessup

SO this isn't a "WAIVERS" thing, developers. This is "IRREVOCABLE Waivers". Which is a completely different thing. This is full DFA here, not the standard roster management DFA. Irrevocable waivers means you intend to RELEASE this player if they are unclaimed.

Under the current MLB real-life rules, there are ONLY irrevocable waivers.

There used to be four types of waivers in MLB:

(1) trade assignment waivers (revocable)
(2) optional assignment waivers (revocable)
(3) outright assignment waivers (irrevocable)
(4) unconditional release waivers (irrevocable)

MLB has abolished both the trade assignment and optional assignment waivers.

Outright assignment waivers are required when removing a player from the active roster and 40-man roster and assigning him outright to the minors and the player is out of options.

Unconditional release waivers are used to release a player. However, in real life, these are never claimed because the claiming team would have to pick up the player's contract. Instead, teams let the player clear waivers and become a free agent, and if they're interested, they'll negotiate a new contract with the player which will usually be much less than the contract with his former club.

[DJessup]

I have as well, I'm not getting Irrevocables either way on this setting rather it's manual or ai. it'll take some time to find this, but we will.

[DJessup]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Under the current MLB real-life rules, there are ONLY irrevocable waivers.

There used to be four types of waivers in MLB:

(1) trade assignment waivers (revocable)
(2) optional assignment waivers (revocable)
(3) outright assignment waivers (irrevocable)
(4) unconditional release waivers (irrevocable)

MLB has abolished both the trade assignment and optional assignment waivers.

Outright assignment waivers are required when removing a player from the active roster and 40-man roster and assigning him outright to the minors and the player is out of options.

Unconditional release waivers are used to release a player. However, in real life, these are never claimed because the claiming team would have to pick up the player's contract. Instead, teams let the player clear waivers and become a free agent, and if they're interested, they'll negotiate a new contract with the player which will usually be much less than the contract with his former club.

Thank you. I wasn't aware of that. is OOTP. because there are absolutely waivers in here that are not irrevocable.

[haubs35]

correct

[DJessup]

Okay I've started fifteen new franchises, all on current rosters, trying to recreate your conditions, and I never get an irrevocable waivers scenario when setting up a trade or a free agent signing. They go into standard DFA, the way it's designed to be.

(And never into a "Irrevocable Waivers is the only one in the game", by the way. I can waive normally, pre-2022 CBA, @Le Grande Orange)

So I am left with my suggestion last night, Haubs. Please set up a single stream from the point of franchise creation on the main screen all the way through this error occurring. One video with your whole setup, please.

That's the only way any of us, devs included, can help with this problem. They don't see it, I don't see it, we are all baffled how this is happening to any of you.

Recommendation: The others of you that have this happening, do the same. At this point, "strength in numbers" might assist in finding the solution to this. And we will! It'll just take time.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by DJessup

Okay I've started fifteen new franchises, all on current rosters, trying to recreate your conditions, and I never get an irrevocable waivers scenario when setting up a trade or a free agent signing. They go into standard DFA, the way it's designed to be.

(And never into a "Irrevocable Waivers is the only one in the game", by the way. I can waive normally, pre-2022 CBA, @Le Grande Orange)

So I am left with my suggestion last night, Haubs. Please set up a single stream from the point of franchise creation on the main screen all the way through this error occurring. One video with your whole setup, please.

That's the only way any of us, devs included, can help with this problem. They don't see it, I don't see it, we are all baffled how this is happening to any of you.

Recommendation: The others of you that have this happening, do the same. At this point, "strength in numbers" might assist in finding the solution to this. And we will! It'll just take time.

Yes, this basically matches our experiences trying to recreate this so far as well

It would indeed be super helpful to be able to see a stream of everything you do from the beginning of setting up the league.

[DJessup]

Originally Posted by Lukas Berger

Yes, this basically matches our experiences trying to recreate this so far as well

It would indeed be super helpful to be able to see a stream of everything you do from the beginning of setting up the league.

I figured, Lukas, based upon the head scratching you've been doing. That's why I offered to help, try to do it from a player perspective and help you find out what's going on with this.

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by DJessup

I figured, Lukas, based upon the head scratching you've been doing. That's why I offered to help, try to do it from a player perspective and help you find out what's going on with this.

Greatly appreciate it!

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by DJessup

Okay I've started fifteen new franchises, all on current rosters, trying to recreate your conditions, and I never get an irrevocable waivers scenario when setting up a trade or a free agent signing. They go into standard DFA, the way it's designed to be.

(And never into a "Irrevocable Waivers is the only one in the game", by the way. I can waive normally, pre-2022 CBA, @Le Grande Orange)

In real life, optional assignment waivers were eliminated as part of the 2017 CBA. Trade assignment waivers were eliminated after the 2018 season (they appear in the 2018 Major League Rules but not in the 2019 MLR).

[DJessup]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

In real life, optional assignment waivers were eliminated as part of the 2017 CBA. Trade assignment waivers were eliminated after the 2018 season (they appear in the 2018 Major League Rules but not in the 2019 MLR).

Has it been that long already?? wow. good to know tho. Thank god that's not the case in OOTP!! Labor unions sure can cause problems. (And sometimes fix them too)

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by DJessup

Has it been that long already?? wow. good to know tho. Thank god that's not the case in OOTP!! Labor unions sure can cause problems. (And sometimes fix them too)

The waiver situation is simpler now, with far fewer complications than in years past. It should be much easier in OOTP too as a result — the only waivers it has to recreate are for outrighting a player to the minors.

[DJessup]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

The waiver situation is simpler now, with far fewer complications than in years past. It should be much easier in OOTP too as a result — the only waivers it has to recreate are for outrighting a player to the minors.

Yeah, pretty much. So you can imagine how baffling this problem is for Haubs and the others suffering through this problem. It's a lot different when it's people making the decisions than a computer algorythm, huh?

We can think "yeah it's real simple. It's "X" or "Y"." But it's not. I'm glad outrighting is not the only option. Baseball might be simpler, but just because "that's the way it is", doesn't always necessarily mean "that's the way it should be". Ah well. Still dealing with the initial problem. So short of rewriting their code to 2024 rules for the 2024 season etc...

I still think the OOTP game is the discussion not recent MLB CBA, although you're right, ofc. I went back the other night and looked at the rules changes when you mentioned them. I have kept up, but nothing I had came across in my casual keeping track IRL showed the extensive overhaul of the Waivers changes, and I appreciate the update. It just doesn't seem like that CBA was added to make them spend 5,000 man hours redesigning a completely new waiver algorythm. Thank God (and OOTP).

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by DJessup

Yeah, pretty much. So you can imagine how baffling this problem is for Haubs and the others suffering through this problem. It's a lot different when it's people making the decisions than a computer algorythm, huh?

OOTP has had for many years a "sign and waive/release" problem that gets triggered by certain setting combinations.

I think what's happening here is a variation of that old problem.

The player gets signed. But the AI handling the active roster decides the player is not good enough to be on the active roster, so it sends the player to the minors. But with no option years left, the player must be sent outright to the minors which necessitates putting him on (irrevocable) waivers. That happens, and the player gets claimed. (And often the same thing happens with the new team: it wants to send the player to the minors, but this requires waivers, and the player gets claimed by yet another team. Rinse and repeat.)

If it's the off-season, then it's the 40-man roster rather than the active roster: the AI decides the player is not good enough to stay on the 40-man, but is too good to just release, so it tries to send him outright to the minors.

Originally Posted by DJessup

We can think "yeah it's real simple. It's "X" or "Y"." But it's not. I'm glad outrighting is not the only option. Baseball might be simpler, but just because "that's the way it is", doesn't always necessarily mean "that's the way it should be".

Here is what the OOTP online manual says about waivers:

When Must a Player Be Placed on Waivers?

In OOTP, a team must place a player on waivers in any of the following scenarios:

• The player is being removed from the secondary roster.
• The player is being demoted from a parent league team to an affiliated minor league team and is out of minor league option years.

Revocable and Irrevocable Waivers

In some cases, a team can withdraw a player from the waiver wire if another team claims him, thus keeping the player. These are called "revocable waivers." In other cases, the team cannot withdraw the player, and if claimed, the team will lose the player. These are called "irrevocable waivers."

In OOTP, waivers are irrevocable when you attempt to demote a player from the parent league team to an affiliated minor league, and he is out of minor league options. When placing a player on irrevocable waivers, you will be warned of that fact.

In all other cases, waivers are revocable in OOTP. If you waive a player in a situation that is revocable, you will be asked if you want to withdraw the player if he is claimed.

Removing a player from the secondary roster involves either: (1) releasing the player; (2) trading the player to another team; or (3) sending a player outright to the minors.

Unconditional release waivers (irrevocable) are a formality and no real-life team ever claims a player from them. Outright assignment waivers are always irrevocable. OOTP never recreated the revocable optional assignment waivers, so those don't apply. That leaves the only revocable waivers the game is recreating are trade assignment waivers, that is, those used in trading a player to another club after the trade deadline. MLB abolished those for 2019.

Originally Posted by DJessup

I went back the other night and looked at the rules changes when you mentioned them. I have kept up, but nothing I had came across in my casual keeping track IRL showed the extensive overhaul of the Waivers changes, and I appreciate the update.

Waiver changes and other rules changes don't tend to be documented well. To find them typically requires digging through the Major League Rules publications which are hard to find.

1986, for example, was a year that saw a lot of changes. The trade deadline was moved from June 15 to July 31, and the waiver restrictions against interleague trading were eliminated.

Originally Posted by DJessup

It just doesn't seem like that CBA was added to make them spend 5,000 man hours redesigning a completely new waiver algorythm. Thank God (and OOTP).

I don't think it's a waiver AI problem. It's a roster management AI problem. It doesn't understand that signing a player to a big contract means you want that player on the active and secondary rosters. It just assesses that player without that consideration, decides he isn't good enough to be on the roster, and then tries to send him outright to the minors which necessitates irrevocable waivers. It doesn't understand that outrighting a player comes with the risk of losing him, and is a transaction that should be done sparingly.

[DJessup]

all excellent information again. Thanks. And I'm not in dispute at all. In fact, that's more or less what I was at least attempting to say all along (And apparently not interpreting myself correctly initially).

I merely noticed on his video he posted later that his waivers window showed "(Irrevocable)". Which on my sims, I have not seen. Given, I don't play franchise on present day, like I said earlier, I prefer pre-2000 seasons when playing offline. So that might just be me and my situational play playing differently in historical mode vs 2010+ seasons.

But all I do know is the devs that responded to Haubs' initial post said they can't figure out what was wrong. I've tried as well. We've gotten some details, and I'm trying to continue that search to get more to try to help these players figure out why it's doing it.

In your extensive post, you list ways that it could be happening. Again, like I said earlier on, AI trying to intuit things, which is why I tried pointing Haubs toward league options settings versus this possibly being a "bug". I'm still trying. Feel free with your extensive knowledge to assist them as well, we all welcome your much greater OOTP experience here, in helping find a solution since you quite clearly know very well what you're talking about.

additionally:
"Roster Management" Problem is a "waiver" problem. Waivers are one part of a larger roster management. either way, the AI needs a better intuitive logic when handling roster management. That's exactly why my very first response in this thread was "what are your league settings? Is the AI handling your transaction management?" (or something to that effect).
And trying to get a computer to think intuitively is the biggest challenge in computer programming. When AI start thinking intuitively, we'll live in a radically different world than we live in today. Cheers.

That's my goal here. Finding a solution to the problem. The information on how the processes work are wonderful, but they don't offer a solution to help the developers or the players make it function correctly. Show us all in OOTP where the setting is that will help us fix it so the players are not so frustrated. They've been posting this for years, and as you said yourself, it's been a problem for a long time.

So lets all work together to fix it. We can have the "why" talk elsewhere. Lets get their problem fixed for now. Thank you for your very in-depth details, they are greatly appreciated. I hope they help everyone find a solution to this topic. I can't.

[Lukas Berger]

I don't think we were able to grab the league file here while it was up on the Dropbox. Could you repost? Thanks, sorry for the inconvenience.

[haubs35]

two different files same problem
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/rafsw...nxq5thfgg&dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/silq7...itsf8anou&dl=0

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by haubs35

two different files same problem
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/rafsw...nxq5thfgg&dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/silq7...itsf8anou&dl=0

Thanks!

[DJessup]

By the way, Lukas... side note? you wanna change the text on your signature? hehe

[Lukas Berger]

Originally Posted by DJessup

By the way, Lukas... side note? you wanna change the text on your signature? hehe

Thanks, I always forget this

[whaleheader]

One additional note:

In OOTP 24 and 25, if a player is kept on the 40-Man, is placed on Revocable Waivers (with a popup message warning that the player must clear Irrevocable Waivers) and then clears Waivers, a GM can then DFA the player and remove the player from the 40-Man Roster without the player having to clear Irrevocable Waivers.