Scouting Discrepancy on different screens

[kidd_05_u2]

Player development in FM is this:

*I just found a 16 year old player through my academy. I can already tell for sure if he is going to be bad/good/great and I get a lot of leeway to decide in what skills he is going to be good/great at.*

It's a terrible system honestly (I do love FM though)

[md40022]

Originally Posted by kidd_05_u2

Fan: Hey chief scout for the Rangers, how would Jacob deGrom rate as a reliever?

Scout: I have no clue! I would need to watch him pitch out of the bullpen first!

Yeah that makes sense.

With all due respect, I think that's jumping to an absolute extreme. Jacob DeGrom doesn't go to the bullpen (and Aaron Judge doesn't go to SS) The more fitting thing here would be...

Manager - Hey scout, how would this AAAA-ish starter with 30 innings of shakey MLB experience to his name fair out of the bullpen. Would this work or is this guy destined to fade off into obscurity?

Scout - Oh, I can tell you that right now at this very second without needing to give it any real game trial at all. Hell, I don't even need to monitor the guy for a few bullpen sessions, I can literally tell you right now

Scouts spend years and years scouting a given player and still end up being wrong A LOT. So to change a guy's position at 9:00 am and have a definitive update on that guy at 9:01 am is a stretch.... Now that said, it's been something we've all comfortably lived with for years with OOTP and will continue to do so. So it's not the worst thing in the world. But since it's the topic at hand here, yeah....

[kidd_05_u2]

You don't get any update. What the hell are you even talking about?

Manager: Hey scouting team, with the information we have about this AAA starter, how do we think he would fare as a reliever?

Scout: Ehhh, I guess his stuff would play up a little bit more. He was a replacement-level starter, he is probably a replacement-level reliever too.

That's what the game does. Is it unrealistic?

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by kidd_05_u2

The scouting and player development systems could have more depth obviously, but I much rather have the OOTP style where you have realistic outcomes (volatile and unpredictable player development that on the aggregate makes sense) than the FM style where you get a lot of gamey stuff to do, but neither the processes nor the outcomes are realistic (you can develop almost every player to their full potential if you play on a big team, and that potential is fixed btw).

The reality is that player development in baseball is predominantly tied to factors outside of an organization's control, so what you say is too much luck is actually luck+other stuff that as a GM you should have no control over.

I agree about the static scouting reports in FM. I like that in OOTP they are dynamic and volatile also. I am saying I wish there was a bit more of a strategy element to scouting and development though. Everything from the type of coaches you hire to what kinds of emphasis and organizational culture should play a role in scouting and development.

For example IRL the Rays are simply brilliant at scouting and development. They obviously invest their money into scouts and coaches. They have a "club culture" of building from within with youth. This is a strategy...not luck. I am not saying luck has no place, but if you hire hitting coaches who are more adept at teaching contact hitting because you want good contact hitters in your organization, this should be considered a strategy and you would hopefully see your plan/strategy pay off at some point.

If you hire certain types of pitching coaches because you want to emphasize certain aspects of how pitchers develop, and instruct your scouts to find players who fit this mold...that would be strategy. I could go on and on with examples of what I am talking about, but I think you get the idea. I am not looking to replicate the FM system to the tee, but I am just using it as an illustration for how a scouting and development system could be deeper and more strategic. I love the idea of dynamic scouting and development full of progressions and regressions...after all that is what makes baseball....baseball. FM is very static in this area, and while I love the dynamic nature of OOTP, I still feel it can really be expanded upon.

[md40022]

Originally Posted by kidd_05_u2

You don't get any update. What the hell are you even talking about?

Manager: Hey scouting team, with the information we have about this AAA starter, how do we think he would fare as a reliever?

Scout: Ehhh, I guess his stuff would play up a little bit more. He was a replacement-level starter, he is probably a replacement-level reliever too.

That's what the game does. Is it unrealistic?

So his stuff rating going from one level to another upon a mouse click isn't an update? Because making something (a rating) more up-to-date is literally the dictionary definition of an update (source sited = Webster's dictionary)



And please, pleeeeeease don't tell me that every pitcher in the world would have an increase in stuff upon moving to a relief role because that would obviously be a silly thing to say. Especially when said pitcher's velocity and individual pitch ratings in the game don't increase upon being moved to the bullpen.....

Scout -- "yeah, he still throws 95mph. That hasn't changed. His curveball is still the exact same. As is his changeup. And his slider. None of that changed at all..... So even though every single aspect of his pitch repertoire, his control and velocity all remains the exact same, his stuff is better now."

Manager -- "yep, that seems very logical"

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by md40022

So his stuff rating going from one level to another upon a mouse click isn't an update? Because making something (a rating) more up-to-date is literally the dictionary definition of an update (source sited = Webster's dictionary)



And please, pleeeeeease don't tell me that every pitcher in the world would have an increase in stuff upon moving to a relief role because that would obviously be a silly thing to say. Especially when said pitcher's velocity and individual pitch ratings in the game don't increase upon being moved to the bullpen.....

Scout -- "yeah, he still throws 95mph. That hasn't changed. His curveball is still the exact same. As is his changeup. And his slider. None of that changed at all..... But his stuff his better."

Manager -- "yep, that seems very logical"

Yes, the only way to really get around this at this point is to simply turn off overall & overall potential ratings....something that would probably make the game seem more realistic, but as I said, I think we SHOULD be able to use overall ratings without the magic updates. They ARE a decent guide for overall player ability in a game with thousands of players.

[snepp]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Yes, the only way to really get around this at this point is to simply turn off overall & overall potential ratings....something that would probably make the game seem more realistic, but as I said, I think we SHOULD be able to use overall ratings without the magic updates. They ARE a decent guide for overall player ability in a game with thousands of players.

I turned overalls permanently off in all my saves this year for the first time (only dabbled in the past).

I like it, but it's a tough adjustment.

[md40022]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Yes, the only way to really get around this at this point is to simply turn off overall & overall potential ratings....something that would probably make the game seem more realistic, but as I said, I think we SHOULD be able to use overall ratings without the magic updates. They ARE a decent guide for overall player ability in a game with thousands of players.

Agreed. At the bare minimum you should need to request a scouting report with the guy in the new role. And that should take time to get. And in the event that the ratings did increase, all of the corresponding ratings should increase along with it. To my point, it's impossible for your stuff to get better when you actual pitches, velocity and control haven't got better lol lol lol.



if your 92 mph heater that you leave over the center of the plate too often and your hanging curveball that you can't control were a problem in the first inning of your start, your "stuff" doesn't magically improve by entering the game in the 6th inning if you're STILL throwing 92 over the heart of the plate and hanging curveballs. If that guy's "stuff" truly improved by going to relief, now he should be throwing 95, the slider should have jumped up 10 points and that weak curveball should be out of the mix.

[kidd_05_u2]

Originally Posted by md40022

So his stuff rating going from one level to another upon a mouse click isn't an update? Because making something (a rating) more up-to-date is literally the dictionary definition of an update (source sited = Webster's dictionary)

It is not a scouting update. You should use your brain more than the dictionary maybe.

[kidd_05_u2]

It would be an update if you were getting new information. The information was already available, you just didn't look earlier.

[md40022]

Originally Posted by kidd_05_u2

It is not a scouting update. You should use your brain more than the dictionary maybe.

That's the point of the entire last 2 pages of discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're right, it's not a scouting update. It's an update from God apparently. Or a magic update. Or a weird update that doesn't quite make sense. Did it come from the tooth fairy?

It is an update of some sort since the ratings became more up-to-date (since we're splitting hairs on this, which is hilarious BTW). But we don't know who or where it came from. All we know is the guy's stuff is better now (even though his entire pitching arsenal is still the same) and his overall rating jumped a star. Short of saying the OOTP Gods delivered it to us out of kindness, or the tooth fairy slipped it under our pillow we don't know how these ratings UPDATED so instantaneously, because you're right that it doesn't appear to be a scouting update. ***This is the exact point of the past 2 pages of discussion.*** Thank you for acknowledging that - the discussion is over on my end.

[kidd_05_u2]

Originally Posted by md40022

Agreed. At the bare minimum you should need to request a scouting report with the guy in the new role. And that should take time to get. And in the event that the ratings did increase, all of the corresponding ratings should increase along with it. To my point, it's impossible for your stuff to get better when you actual pitches, velocity and control haven't got better lol lol lol.



if your 92 mph heater that you leave over the center of the plate too often and your hanging curveball that you can't control were a problem in the first inning of your start, your "stuff" doesn't magically improve by entering the game in the 6th inning if you're STILL throwing 92 over the heart of the plate and hanging curveballs. If that guy's "stuff" truly improved by going to relief, now he should be throwing 95, the slider should have jumped up 10 points and that weak curveball should be out of the mix.

It is obvious to everyone but you apparently that there have to be some compromises because this is a game.

The fastball speed rating doesn't change because the game has no way of knowing how much speed a given pitcher would gain by moving to the bullpen. Your suggestion of having the scout watch the player pitch out of the bullpen wouldn't change this. The same goes for the individual pitch ratings. In these cases, the game simply assumes there is some improvement because the pitcher isn't pacing himself. Providing new numerical ratings based on this would be stupid for reasons that hopefully you won't need me to explain.

Stuff also improves when the pitcher and can shelve their worst pitches.
In your dumb example, the pitcher may shelve the curveball to focus on other better pitches. If the individual pitches are all rated the same, the stuff may not improve.

[kidd_05_u2]

Originally Posted by md40022

That's the point of the entire last 2 pages of discussion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You're right, it's not a scouting update. It's an update from God apparently. Or a magic update. Or a weird update that doesn't quite make sense. Did it come from the tooth fairy?

It is an update of some sort since the ratings became more up-to-date (since we're splitting hairs on this, which is hilarious BTW). But we don't know who or where it came from. All we know is the guy's stuff is better now (even though his entire pitching arsenal is still the same) and his overall rating jumped a star. Short of saying the OOTP Gods delivered it to us out of kindness, or the tooth fairy slipped it under our pillow we don't know how these ratings UPDATED so instantaneously, because you're right that it doesn't appear to be a scouting update. ***This is the exact point of the past 2 pages of discussion.*** Thank you for acknowledging that - the discussion is over on my end.

It would be an update if you were getting new information. The information was already available, you just didn't look earlier. The ratings are not more up to date.

[kidd_05_u2]

If the pitcher's last scouting report was May 1st and you change him from SP to RP on July 30th, the RP ratings are still based on the May 1st report.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by md40022

And please, pleeeeeease don't tell me that every pitcher in the world would have an increase in stuff upon moving to a relief role

I mean...yes. We know this lol. 95%+ of pitchers will pitch *much* better with *much* better Stuff out of the pen than as starters, by the very nature of relief work being higher-effort than starting work.

We quite literally measure Stuff+ and know that the average is about 95 for SPs and 105 for RPs.

[KRSW]

Originally Posted by kidd_05_u2

If the pitcher's last scouting report was May 1st and you change him from SP to RP on July 30th, the RP ratings are still based on the May 1st report.

That's right.

[OutS|der]

Originally Posted by md40022

And please, pleeeeeease don't tell me that every pitcher in the world would have an increase in stuff upon moving to a relief role because that would obviously be a silly thing to say. Especially when said pitcher's velocity and individual pitch ratings in the game don't increase upon being moved to the bullpen.....

Actually they likey would see an increase in stuff. As mentioned as a reliever they no longer have to pace themselves, nor do they have to throw all thier pitches. So yes their raring would go up since instead of rating stuff on top 3 pitches, it's now the top two.

Just because you don't accept it doesn't make it any less true

[md40022]

A guy like Kyle Hendricks, for example, would not have much "stuff" uptick at all IRL being moved to the bullpen.

Those soft-tossin' relying on control and speed change starting pitchers tend to not ever move to the bullpen specifically because the stuff doesn't change much for those guys.... There are not very many converted reliever success stories (or failure stores) with that type of pitcher because the conversion isn't even attempted in the first place normally.

Plenty of examples of guys who had good stuff but lacked control (or lacked whatever) who went to the 'pen and "ramped it up" and got real nasty. Yes. But an extreme rarity when that happens with the 87mph soft tosser..... So to my point, it's not "every" pitcher.

[MathBandit]

Originally Posted by md40022

A guy like Kyle Hendricks, for example, would not have much "stuff" uptick at all IRL being moved to the bullpen.

Which is why in a standard OOTP game he goes from 40/45/70 to 45/45/70 if you move him from SP to RP.

He would *absolutely* be more effective per-inning as a reliever than as a starter, just like every other pitcher in the history of baseball. No one is saying every mediocre starter can turn into Rivera or Gagne; just that they all get a tick up in the pen.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by MathBandit

Which is why in a standard OOTP game he goes from 40/45/70 to 45/45/70 if you move him from SP to RP.

He would *absolutely* be more effective per-inning as a reliever than as a starter, just like every other pitcher in the history of baseball. No one is saying every mediocre starter can turn into Rivera or Gagne; just that they all get a tick up in the pen.

What you are saying is true when it comes to relievers, but I think our criticism is more rooted in the system the game uses. You have to remember, position players are also subject to this.