Is 21 worth it if I have 20?

[Blackmissiongoggles]

This year's installment hooked me much quicker than last year's, mostly because of the new stat columns and Prospect Pipeline. I played through a season quicker than I did last year, which I basically had to make myself play, and had a lot of fun in the process. But I hit a wall after that - which is the same exact wall that I hit last year. I've put thousands of hours into these games since 15 and I almost feel like I'm just chasing the OOTP dragon at this point. I was completely blown away the first time I played these games, but every year that dips a little bit more, and I think I'm just at a point where spending hours setting up my minors, and tweaking every little thing to perfection just isn't giving me the same satisfaction because I know what to expect now. Like has already been said, the AI GMs are the same, every player is essentially just a baseball bot with no personality and the world itself just feels boring now. The controversy with Nolan Arenado during the offseason just made me desperate for something more engaging from OOTP (media attention/press conferences, whatever).

I'm still plugging through my Tigers rebuild and I'm having some fun, because this is still a solid game and I love baseball, but I'm just bummed that a series that I've been obsessed with for years requires me to force myself to play it now.

[luckymann]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

I really liked the 3D engine when it first launched but now 3 years later and it still doesn't sync and flow smoothly. Timing is just completely off.I can forgive glitches like running through walls etc but the timing needs huge improvments.

I know they've improved animations but honestly I'm not sure how people even play it anymore. There is no flow or sync when their are baserunners and hits to the outfield. The timing of everything is completely off. You have relay guys still holding the ball watching runners go 2 extra bases.

Honestly at this point I don't care what the play by play says I dont even even pay attention to it. That is the entire point of watching something in 3D so I don't have to read text. But I find it so hard to watch the 3D because it doesn't flow like baseball it's just not right. So I play out less and less games.

Just to use FM as an example sure it has some weird individual animations issues on players but the timing, flow, sync are spot on.

Have you updated with the patch from a week or so ago? The 3D is much smoother, not perfect but a great improvement on previous, especially with regard to infield grounders / plays.

[OmahaBaseball]

For me, the word that best describes it is “stagnation.” Maybe it’s me and how I play the game, the direction the developers are taking the game, or some combination thereof. All I know is I’ve been here since v4 and the last few years have not drawn me in. I’m still playing v18 and not seeing any urgency to buy / update right now.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by luckymann

Have you updated with the patch from a week or so ago? The 3D is much smoother, not perfect but a great improvement on previous, especially with regard to infield grounders / plays.

Yeah I mostly have a problem with the outfield and base runners and relay guys and extra bases. Most of the time its completely out of sync. Or the ball looks shallow but its really not so they take 2 bases. Just looks weird. The individual animations I am ok with. Even the infield previous glitches and weird stuff didn't bother me as much.

[too_on_too_out]

But isn't it working like this: every improvement in 3D (measured in invested development hours) = further stagnation in finances, import/export, UI, drafting, sandbox/customization capabilities etc? Iow, the opportunity costs. So the arc of the baseball as it floats over the infield vs fixing/deepening user potential with the game are zero-sum, no?

[jimmysthebestcop]

Honestly ootp probably needs a huge revolutionary step.

I would seriously consider just doing the yearly versions as paid dlc as well as doing perfect team as separate dlc. For say the next 2 years.

Then the idea would be to do a big Kickstarter campaign for the next generation ootp. That Kickstarter money is to hire staff or outsource or any combination of staff requirements.

Many small to big Indy devs these days do Kickstarter. If it's not for the entire budget of the game the larger devs just do Kickstarter for extra things.

The Pathfinder kingmaker guys had enough finance to fund the sequel but they went to Kickstarter to get some extra content. They only needed 200k and raised over 2 million!!!

Kickstarter also drives media and fan buzz and if successful increases sales.

I could also see ootp becoming more perfect team and results based driven and getting rid of the gm experience because it's not done well.

I guess ootp is focusing on perfect team because it speaks to casual gamers, fantasy guys and daily betters. And that's the type of people to have lower end computers.

Ootp certainly doesn't focus on the real gamers to drive sales. If they wanted to expand the gaming segment they would have to make gm mode a real thing.

Only 2 things can carry ootpb into the future, gamers or the daily guys. Which means ootp will just keep doing what they are doing. 5% improvement to base game each year, roster updates, bug fixes, and more customization options.

That's why ootp has played the same for 5 years at least. At least with perfect team it probably won't be going anywhere. But it'll just be for perfect team players or baseball fans that want to run the game to see results or results in their dream baseball world. It won't actually be a game for real gamers. Maybe the truth is it never was??

I'm not bad mouthing ootp or the devs. The things ootp does well it does well it's just the things it dies bad it does really bad.

I just find it sad that it'll never become a real true video game. So much potential in gm baseball. But I have to accept reality until a future version of the game prices me wrong.

[One Post Wonder]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

I would seriously consider just doing the yearly versions as paid dlc as well as doing perfect team as separate dlc. For say the next 2 years.

Then the idea would be to do a big Kickstarter campaign for the next generation ootp. That Kickstarter money is to hire staff or outsource or any combination of staff requirements.

I don't think that would even out for OOTP Developments. They'd lose a lot if they went to DLC. And I can't speak for anyone else, but I feel as though OOTP is too big at this point to be asking for Kickstarter money and they're supposedly raking in the dough from Perfect Team. People might not be sympathetic to such a request.

With their future, I think you're forgetting that soon they're going to have to compete against The Show. It's going to be a rough time next year and I hope OOTP Developments has prepared for it. The devs have to know that the income they've been getting over the past 2-3 years is not going to continue once The Show comes out.

Their recent development path has even made their base game a little bit vulnerable to that competition. Let's say that The Show comes out next year, and it has a great franchise mode - good enough to appeal to players like us. What then? Since OOTP's base game hasn't been made deeper, a new player with big pockets could come up with a franchise mode which rivals what OOTP has now, along with AAA graphics, arcade play, and the "Road to the Show" mode. OOTP might wind up like Baseball Mogul.

Right now IMO they should be working to make their GM/Franchise play untouchable so that they'll keep their core gamers. If they keep focusing on graphics and PT they're going to be going toe to toe with a big boy and I don't think that will work out too well for them.

They've always made good business decisions in the past, though. I remember saying a few years back that they needed to take advantage of the weak PC baseball market and they sure as heck have done that. I'm confident they've got something in mind for next year that will maintain their corner of the market no matter what The Show has to offer. I'm somewhat optimistic about OOTP 22 because of this. They surely know what their bread and butter is and they must be aware that they need to focus on it now.

[ablobj]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

Honestly ootp probably needs a huge revolutionary step.

I would seriously consider just doing the yearly versions as paid dlc as well as doing perfect team as separate dlc. For say the next 2 years.

Then the idea would be to do a big Kickstarter campaign for the next generation ootp. That Kickstarter money is to hire staff or outsource or any combination of staff requirements.

Many small to big Indy devs these days do Kickstarter. If it's not for the entire budget of the game the larger devs just do Kickstarter for extra things.

The Pathfinder kingmaker guys had enough finance to fund the sequel but they went to Kickstarter to get some extra content. They only needed 200k and raised over 2 million!!!

Kickstarter also drives media and fan buzz and if successful increases sales.

I could also see ootp becoming more perfect team and results based driven and getting rid of the gm experience because it's not done well.

I guess ootp is focusing on perfect team because it speaks to casual gamers, fantasy guys and daily betters. And that's the type of people to have lower end computers.

Ootp certainly doesn't focus on the real gamers to drive sales. If they wanted to expand the gaming segment they would have to make gm mode a real thing.

Only 2 things can carry ootpb into the future, gamers or the daily guys. Which means ootp will just keep doing what they are doing. 5% improvement to base game each year, roster updates, bug fixes, and more customization options.

That's why ootp has played the same for 5 years at least. At least with perfect team it probably won't be going anywhere. But it'll just be for perfect team players or baseball fans that want to run the game to see results or results in their dream baseball world. It won't actually be a game for real gamers. Maybe the truth is it never was??

I'm not bad mouthing ootp or the devs. The things ootp does well it does well it's just the things it dies bad it does really bad.

I just find it sad that it'll never become a real true video game. So much potential in gm baseball. But I have to accept reality until a future version of the game prices me wrong.

The broader the audience, the more games you sell. The only competition, as far as GM baseball is concerned, is Mogul, and OOTP pretty much buried that game years ago. They seem to have since set their sights on the single-season replay crowd, which is where I come from, and have been pretty much conquering that market by offering a comparable level of realism, and many more options, at a fraction of the price. Unless someone else comes along and creates a better GM baseball sim, well, OOTP is as good as it gets.

[ablobj]

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

I don't think that would even out for OOTP Developments. They'd lose a lot if they went to DLC. And I can't speak for anyone else, but I feel as though OOTP is too big at this point to be asking for Kickstarter money and they're supposedly raking in the dough from Perfect Team. People might not be sympathetic to such a request.

With their future, I think you're forgetting that soon they're going to have to compete against The Show. It's going to be a rough time next year and I hope OOTP Developments has prepared for it. The devs have to know that the income they've been getting over the past 2-3 years is not going to continue once The Show comes out.

Their recent development path has even made their base game a little bit vulnerable to that competition. Let's say that The Show comes out next year, and it has a great franchise mode - good enough to appeal to players like us. What then? Since OOTP's base game hasn't been made deeper, a new player with big pockets could come up with a franchise mode which rivals what OOTP has now, along with AAA graphics, arcade play, and the "Road to the Show" mode. OOTP might wind up like Baseball Mogul.

Right now IMO they should be working to make their GM/Franchise play untouchable so that they'll keep their core gamers. If they keep focusing on graphics and PT they're going to be going toe to toe with a big boy and I don't think that will work out too well for them.

They've always made good business decisions in the past, though. I remember saying a few years back that they needed to take advantage of the weak PC baseball market and they sure as heck have done that. I'm confident they've got something in mind for next year that will maintain their corner of the market no matter what The Show has to offer. I'm somewhat optimistic about OOTP 22 because of this. They surely know what their bread and butter is and they must be aware that they need to focus on it now.

I doubt that Markus and his team are really that worried about the possibility of The Show coming to PC. I play both games,and they have very little in common.

[ablobj]

Originally Posted by too_on_too_out

But isn't it working like this: every improvement in 3D (measured in invested development hours) = further stagnation in finances, import/export, UI, drafting, sandbox/customization capabilities etc? Iow, the opportunity costs. So the arc of the baseball as it floats over the infield vs fixing/deepening user potential with the game are zero-sum, no?

Ahh, yes....Econ 101 and the production possibilities curve...my Prof used the old "Guns vs. Butter" example. But by adding more capital, OOTP would be able to produce more of both!

[actionjackson]

I usually wait until really late in the development cycle when things are less buggy, but I'm a bit finicky that way. I also don't have to keep downloading updates. YMMV

[dward1]

Originally Posted by One Post Wonder

I don't think that would even out for OOTP Developments. They'd lose a lot if they went to DLC. And I can't speak for anyone else, but I feel as though OOTP is too big at this point to be asking for Kickstarter money and they're supposedly raking in the dough from Perfect Team. People might not be sympathetic to such a request.

With their future, I think you're forgetting that soon they're going to have to compete against The Show. It's going to be a rough time next year and I hope OOTP Developments has prepared for it. The devs have to know that the income they've been getting over the past 2-3 years is not going to continue once The Show comes out.

Their recent development path has even made their base game a little bit vulnerable to that competition. Let's say that The Show comes out next year, and it has a great franchise mode - good enough to appeal to players like us. What then? Since OOTP's base game hasn't been made deeper, a new player with big pockets could come up with a franchise mode which rivals what OOTP has now, along with AAA graphics, arcade play, and the "Road to the Show" mode. OOTP might wind up like Baseball Mogul.

Right now IMO they should be working to make their GM/Franchise play untouchable so that they'll keep their core gamers. If they keep focusing on graphics and PT they're going to be going toe to toe with a big boy and I don't think that will work out too well for them.

They've always made good business decisions in the past, though. I remember saying a few years back that they needed to take advantage of the weak PC baseball market and they sure as heck have done that. I'm confident they've got something in mind for next year that will maintain their corner of the market no matter what The Show has to offer. I'm somewhat optimistic about OOTP 22 because of this. They surely know what their bread and butter is and they must be aware that they need to focus on it now.

what makes you think the devs think the "base game" isn't PT?

the amount of work that has gone into "GM mode" the last 3 versions is miniscule. they've paid zero attention to it

[Calvert98]

I think back to Syd's point, things like the 3D or even the enhanced UI (which is much better this year on a number of levels), make the "experience" of the core game better. As a result, that might be the best way to go, at least for the time being.

Yes, 100% agree the 3D needs a lot of improvement. But that is sort of the point. If even at this stage, it has enhanced the experience of your GM role for a number of long-time fans of the game such as myself and Syd, and likely a number of other folks, imagine how much more could be gained by stepping-up the development of that aspect.

Also, OOTP as a lot of mechanics built-in, any of which could be developed a lot further. And when you add something new, it needs to be maintained, and customers will expect it to be improved. So, I also 100% agree that existing mechanics in the game should take priority at this point, such as this year's "feeder league" improvements, or more depth in the coaching.

In the end however, and back to Syd's point, I think development of items that target how we experience the game will go a long way in keeping people engaged.

-Cal

[wallewalls]

For as much as I am unsatisfied with the progression in the game's "GM Mode" if we're calling it that, I would not say that The Show's franchise mode compares to OOTP's at all. I've played both, and my feeling that The Show's franchise mode was so barebones compared to OOTP was the ultimate reason for why I stopped buying The Show every year. For people who just want to simulate running a baseball team, OOTP, even if it hasn't seen much change, is still the class of all baseball games. For the folks like myself and a few others in this thread that still plays OOTP exclusively for this reason, OOTP would still be the better purchase if that's their sole interest (I don't manage games in OOTP, only the postseason and Opening Day and if a new player tr top prospect debuts).

[dward1]

Originally Posted by Calvert98

I think back to Syd's point, things like the 3D or even the enhanced UI (which is much better this year on a number of levels), make the "experience" of the core game better. As a result, that might be the best way to go, at least for the time being.

Yes, 100% agree the 3D needs a lot of improvement. But that is sort of the point. If even at this stage, it has enhanced the experience of your GM role for a number of long-time fans of the game such as myself and Syd, and likely a number of other folks, imagine how much more could be gained by stepping-up the development of that aspect.

Also, OOTP as a lot of mechanics built-in, any of which could be developed a lot further. And when you add something new, it needs to be maintained, and customers will expect it to be improved. So, I also 100% agree that existing mechanics in the game should take priority at this point, such as this year's "feeder league" improvements, or more depth in the coaching.

In the end however, and back to Syd's point, I think development of items that target how we experience the game will go a long way in keeping people engaged.

-Cal

for however negative I've been, I do agree that the 3D has been a big leap forward in total experience of the game. while it's still frustrating it does see clear progress in ways "off the field" stuff does not. I wish the simulation engine was better but the 3D is a big boost to the "core game" as well

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by wallewalls

For as much as I am unsatisfied with the progression in the game's "GM Mode" if we're calling it that, I would not say that The Show's franchise mode compares to OOTP's at all. I've played both, and my feeling that The Show's franchise mode was so barebones compared to OOTP was the ultimate reason for why I stopped buying The Show every year. For people who just want to simulate running a baseball team, OOTP, even if it hasn't seen much change, is still the class of all baseball games. For the folks like myself and a few others in this thread that still plays OOTP exclusively for this reason, OOTP would still be the better purchase if that's their sole interest (I don't manage games in OOTP, only the postseason and Opening Day and if a new player tr top prospect debuts).

Originally Posted by dward1

for however negative I've been, I do agree that the 3D has been a big leap forward in total experience of the game. while it's still frustrating it does see clear progress in ways "off the field" stuff does not. I wish the simulation engine was better but the 3D is a big boost to the "core game" as well

Maybe the problem with "GM Mode" is that it has elements of fiction or "intangibles" if it was just strict spreadsheet mode and had all of the "fluff" "video game" elements removed it probably wouldn't set false hope or expectations for so many people.

And I think OOTPb is missing out on the "intangibles" what is discussed more around the bar a players exact saber fan graph stats and charts or the players intangibles? So and so is a great locker room leader, the captain on the field. So and so is clutch. Who puts their body on the line running into the wall? Etc. These intangibles don't fit in with OOTPb because its rating categories are only physical. They don't account for anything mental or intangible like Football Manager and Motorsport Manager. That's why the characters in those games feel alive and in OOTPb they are just ratings/numbers/stats.

As much as I love 3D for the most part managing a baseball game in OOTP is extremely boring. All I do is press 1/space except to manager my bullpen. There is no player interaction. No way to fire up the team.Mound visits are for "show" only.

I need a sports management game to either be as deep as Football Manager or as fun/entertaining as Motorsport Manager from now on.

After many a long session of OOTP during "Stay at home" protocol I often wonder did I actually just have fun? Did OOTPb actually entertain me? Or am I just playing OOTPb like some kind of gigantic virtual checklist?

See last year when I played Perfect Team exclusively it actually did bring entertainment and fun. But its not something I would do every year. Now I feel myself playing OOTPb just to complete tasks that I've created for myself. I doubt if the game is actually bringing joyful entertainment its more like OOTPb is just "busy work" that became routine and that is why I plug along with it.

[Dave Hansen]

I started with v4 always playing out each and every game...recently purchased 18...19...20. Versus the early days, the last three versions probably had less than 50 hours of play time.

Why...two reasons...I grew up in the day listening to KDKA the voice of the Pirates with my dad...I really loved baseball back in the day. Over the years my interest has waned with baseball for numerous reasons...I have the MLB package and almost never will I sit in front of the TV for 3+ hours to watch the Pirates complete a game at 11:30 PM.

I have 2800+ hours with Motorsport Manager (modded). For me it's a detailed enough sports sim to give me a sense of hands on race management in 3 different racing worlds...AND...each season can be quickly completed...thus I get to manage all the little details myself AND get to see my overall success play out so much quicker season by season.

OOTP is a great baseball sim...but MLB no longer holds my devoted interest to the game it once did...hence to play out a 162 game season in OOTP had become a "chore" vs. a racing season in MM and my new found interest in F1.

Lastly I've seen OOTP make tremendous strides over the years as a baseball sim...with V21...remember the low hanging fruit has been previously harvested...that makes the challenge for Markus harder each year to keep the product "fresh". Unfortunately, for me it no longer scratches my sports sim itch like it once did.

[eldur00]

Originally Posted by wallewalls

For as much as I am unsatisfied with the progression in the game's "GM Mode" if we're calling it that, I would not say that The Show's franchise mode compares to OOTP's at all. I've played both, and my feeling that The Show's franchise mode was so barebones compared to OOTP was the ultimate reason for why I stopped buying The Show every year. For people who just want to simulate running a baseball team, OOTP, even if it hasn't seen much change, is still the class of all baseball games. For the folks like myself and a few others in this thread that still plays OOTP exclusively for this reason, OOTP would still be the better purchase if that's their sole interest (I don't manage games in OOTP, only the postseason and Opening Day and if a new player tr top prospect debuts).

I don't think the comparison between the Show and OOTP is one that can be solidly made. I play both, but for very different reasons. Sometimes I just want to be on the mound as Greg Maddux and get batters out.



To me it's definitely more of a "Is OOTP21 much better than OOTP20" thing. And the answer is, no. I do like the changes in scouting, but I just think OOTP in general has plateaued for the past 4 versions or so. It's also very clear the focus is on PT now, because it generates so much money. It's also evidenced by the Devs not being nearly as active on the "regular" ootp side of the forums. Some users post issues they have and it can go a very long time before being answered, if at all (used to not be like this). But somebody posts in the PT forum they don't like the cards art and the Devs are all over that.



It is what it is. At this point I buy each version more as a reflex than anything, but like another poster said above, I'm logging a lot less hours in the game. It has a feel of "been there, done that" that doesn't get refreshed every year now with so few features introduced the past few years.

[wallewalls]

Originally Posted by eldur00

I don't think the comparison between the Show and OOTP is one that can be solidly made. I play both, but for very different reasons. Sometimes I just want to be on the mound as Greg Maddux and get batters out.



To me it's definitely more of a "Is OOTP21 much better than OOTP20" thing. And the answer is, no. I do like the changes in scouting, but I just think OOTP in general has plateaued for the past 4 versions or so. It's also very clear the focus is on PT now, because it generates so much money. It's also evidenced by the Devs not being nearly as active on the "regular" ootp side of the forums. Some users post issues they have and it can go a very long time before being answered, if at all (used to not be like this). But somebody posts in the PT forum they don't like the cards art and the Devs are all over that.



It is what it is. At this point I buy each version more as a reflex than anything, but like another poster said above, I'm logging a lot less hours in the game. It has a feel of "been there, done that" that doesn't get refreshed every year now with so few features introduced the past few years.

Absolutely, The Show came up in the discussion because it is apparently releasing on PC next year. I don't consider them similar at all, other than they're both about baseball. One is gameplay oriented, and the other is results/simulation based. Just like FIFA and FM can co-exist, so can The Show and OOTP. If I want a deep GM experience, I'm still going to pick OOTP over The Show, even if OOTP has stagnated (been playing hardcore since v16 so i feel like I can make that statement). I don't play the game for the 3D, and I couldn't care less about it. If it disappeared I would not shed a single tear. The GM side is what I care about, and that's the part of the game that has been touched the least in the most recent versions. The new scouting doesn't do anything for me really. All I do is just press "request scouting report" before I acquire or trade a player, or even just say that "average" accuracy is good enough in some cases.

[eldur00]

Originally Posted by wallewalls

Absolutely, The Show came up in the discussion because it is apparently releasing on PC next year. I don't consider them similar at all, other than they're both about baseball. One is gameplay oriented, and the other is results/simulation based. Just like FIFA and FM can co-exist, so can The Show and OOTP. If I want a deep GM experience, I'm still going to pick OOTP over The Show, even if OOTP has stagnated (been playing hardcore since v16 so i feel like I can make that statement). I don't play the game for the 3D, and I couldn't care less about it. If it disappeared I would not shed a single tear. The GM side is what I care about, and that's the part of the game that has been touched the least in the most recent versions. The new scouting doesn't do anything for me really. All I do is just press "request scouting report" before I acquire or trade a player, or even just say that "average" accuracy is good enough in some cases.

Oh I'm with you 100%. I also don't care about the 3D. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, they could have waited until they had it right before releasing it and then slowly improving upon it. That's not a slight on whoever is working on it, but 3D does have some issues to it, it has gotten better, but it's lacking a bit of "polish". I also wouldn't miss it for a second if it was gone, in fact, I still play out all my games in 2D Classic.
OOTP20 was the most disappointing version to me. It introduced so little, even less than 21.