"There is no such thing as a clutch hitter" - Page 3

Goody · 09-26-2002, 07:28 PM

Who would you rather have batting for you with 2 outs in the bottom of the ninth in a 1 run game?

Dave Winfield? http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/winfida01.shtml

or Reggie Jackson? http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jacksre01.shtml

Goody · 09-26-2002, 07:30 PM

I'm verklempt, discuss among yourselfs...

Hootowl 9 · 10-01-2002, 03:42 PM

Wow......great post DennisS

Rasmuth · 10-01-2002, 04:49 PM

ok...I have no way to prove this but you'll have to take my word for it as a true baseball fan, my love for the sport and my honor as a man.

Years ago...in the late 70's I saw an interview on tv where Ted Williams was asked the following question. It was something to the effect of "Who is the best clutch hitter you ever saw?"

His reply was without even thinking (I remember how quickly the answer came to him) was Phil Rizzuto. He said that Rizzuto always found a way to do what was needed...and he said that there was no better player at getting a runner home than Rizzuto. He also said that his ability to do this was uncanny.
He said that if he was a manager and a runner was in scoring position in a crucial situation he wanted no other player than Rizzuto. He even joked that he'd pick Rizzuto over himself.

So if the players (arguably the best player ever) believe in the clutch factor...so do I. Thats all the evidence I need.

OilCanBoyd · 10-02-2002, 09:51 AM

all is clutch hitting.

all plate appearances with no effect on the game (or participating teams) are worthless.

the problem is to define the clutch situations (not only late innings when you are behind) and make statistics out of it.

example:

your team is behind in the ninth of the last game of the world series and the unhittable closer comes in for the other team.
you got a hit and your team gets all the hope it needed to win the game and the series (do you remember yankees, hehe).

you can argue about the avg. this guy had before and luck and so on, but the only fact that stands, he MADE IT in this situation and no one else did.

is this clutchhitting?

i think so.

you may say it is just the law of averages, but that is only one way to see it.

i say, in that situation it does not even count what the player did before (in his career, in postseason or world series games), because this is a once in a lifetime situation (almost) and the only thing i am interested at this moment is this time.

and there are players you like to see ihnj that keind of situations and some you do not.

(as a red sox fan i remember the bucky dent thing, but this was maybe more the curse than clutch hitting.)

it has to do with believe (and brenley truly believed that grace will do something good for the team that game).

i go the other way, it is nice to have good stats in the team but it is useless, when you do not get the needed wins and even can not reach the playoffs.

if you say there is no such thing like clutch performance in baseball, ok but that just your point of view.

in my baseballteam we have a player with an large different of avg. in the years he played.
he had a lot of game winning hits and tie-breaking hits or hits in moments where the team needed it in every year.
he is one of the players i like to see at bat in clutch situations what his avg. might look like.

you say it is just luck? ok, than i take this lucky guy instead of some superstars with better stats that regularly fail in these situations.

i think it depends on the point of view do you have what a clutch situation is and what a clutch performance looks like.

i believe in clutch hitting (and till now, nothing here or anywhere else (james...) written really changed my opinion).

greets

ps:
in other sports are clutch hitters (performer) accepted.

thank you BALLACK for all the clutch goals you made in the 2002 soccer world championship (maybe some of them are even known in the USA ;-), i believed in you and was never disappointed by you.

H I Mcdonough · 10-03-2002, 10:47 AM

The statistics may or may not mean anything, but one cannot deny that certain people are more likely to remain focused, calm, and level headed in a stressful situation.

If someone is batting with the game on the line, and he is nervous and having a hard time getting his **** together, and doesn't want to be up there, there's a very good chance he will fail.

If someone in the same situation is calm, cool, collected and absolutely believes he's the right man to be there, then he has a much better chance of succeeding.

Period. It works in every walk of life. Clutch performances aren't reflected in stats always, they are a part of someones character and therefore, often they are better for a given situation.

Dazooz · 10-03-2002, 05:45 PM

Is it the clutch hitter that makes the clutch hit?

or is it the clutch hit that makes the clutch hitter?

(I believe I have seen someone say that before but I can't remember where I heard or read it, so I'm sorry if it is one of you and I can't give you credit for the quote.)

If the latter (which I feel is accurate), then you can't really define someone as a clutch hitter until they have made a clutch hit. Or, better yet, multiple clutch hits. But to say one guy is and one guy isn't is basically moot until you get them to perform in any given situation.

I'm of the school of thought that you can't really assign a label of clutch hitter to any player because they are only as much a clutch hitter as their last clutch hit (however you might define that), but there are definitly players you would rather have at bat (or on the mound for that matter) in certain situations.

I say let the players define themselves through their actions on the field rather than assigning a certain label to them. Then after their career is over, you can reflect on their statistics and decide for yourself whether or not they were clutch.

09-26-2002, 07:28 PM	#41
Goody Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South Korea Posts: 3,530	Who would you rather have batting for you with 2 outs in the bottom of the ninth in a 1 run game? Dave Winfield? http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/winfida01.shtml or Reggie Jackson? http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jacksre01.shtml __________________ In the past: Laseron Baseball Association creator. Present: I am Rezulm on PT and OOTP Discord. Future: I wish it was the past.

09-26-2002, 07:30 PM	#42
Goody Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: South Korea Posts: 3,530	I'm verklempt, discuss among yourselfs... __________________ In the past: Laseron Baseball Association creator. Present: I am Rezulm on PT and OOTP Discord. Future: I wish it was the past.

10-02-2002, 09:51 AM	#45
OilCanBoyd Minors (Rookie Ball) Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Darmstadt, Germany Posts: 37	another look at clutchhitting all is clutch hitting. all plate appearances with no effect on the game (or participating teams) are worthless. the problem is to define the clutch situations (not only late innings when you are behind) and make statistics out of it. example: your team is behind in the ninth of the last game of the world series and the unhittable closer comes in for the other team. you got a hit and your team gets all the hope it needed to win the game and the series (do you remember yankees, hehe). you can argue about the avg. this guy had before and luck and so on, but the only fact that stands, he MADE IT in this situation and no one else did. is this clutchhitting? i think so. you may say it is just the law of averages, but that is only one way to see it. i say, in that situation it does not even count what the player did before (in his career, in postseason or world series games), because this is a once in a lifetime situation (almost) and the only thing i am interested at this moment is this time. and there are players you like to see ihnj that keind of situations and some you do not. (as a red sox fan i remember the bucky dent thing, but this was maybe more the curse than clutch hitting.) it has to do with believe (and brenley truly believed that grace will do something good for the team that game). i go the other way, it is nice to have good stats in the team but it is useless, when you do not get the needed wins and even can not reach the playoffs. if you say there is no such thing like clutch performance in baseball, ok but that just your point of view. in my baseballteam we have a player with an large different of avg. in the years he played. he had a lot of game winning hits and tie-breaking hits or hits in moments where the team needed it in every year. he is one of the players i like to see at bat in clutch situations what his avg. might look like. you say it is just luck? ok, than i take this lucky guy instead of some superstars with better stats that regularly fail in these situations. i think it depends on the point of view do you have what a clutch situation is and what a clutch performance looks like. i believe in clutch hitting (and till now, nothing here or anywhere else (james...) written really changed my opinion). greets ps: in other sports are clutch hitters (performer) accepted. thank you BALLACK for all the clutch goals you made in the 2002 soccer world championship (maybe some of them are even known in the USA ;-), i believed in you and was never disappointed by you. __________________ GM PittsburghPirates (German Baseball League)

10-01-2002, 03:42 PM	#43
Hootowl 9 Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Genesee Depot, Wis. Posts: 209	Wow......great post DennisS

10-01-2002, 04:49 PM	#44
Rasmuth All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Upstate Western NY Posts: 1,760	ok...I have no way to prove this but you'll have to take my word for it as a true baseball fan, my love for the sport and my honor as a man. Years ago...in the late 70's I saw an interview on tv where Ted Williams was asked the following question. It was something to the effect of "Who is the best clutch hitter you ever saw?" His reply was without even thinking (I remember how quickly the answer came to him) was Phil Rizzuto. He said that Rizzuto always found a way to do what was needed...and he said that there was no better player at getting a runner home than Rizzuto. He also said that his ability to do this was uncanny. He said that if he was a manager and a runner was in scoring position in a crucial situation he wanted no other player than Rizzuto. He even joked that he'd pick Rizzuto over himself. So if the players (arguably the best player ever) believe in the clutch factor...so do I. Thats all the evidence I need.

10-03-2002, 10:47 AM	#46
H I Mcdonough Minors (Triple A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 291	The statistics may or may not mean anything, but one cannot deny that certain people are more likely to remain focused, calm, and level headed in a stressful situation. If someone is batting with the game on the line, and he is nervous and having a hard time getting his **** together, and doesn't want to be up there, there's a very good chance he will fail. If someone in the same situation is calm, cool, collected and absolutely believes he's the right man to be there, then he has a much better chance of succeeding. Period. It works in every walk of life. Clutch performances aren't reflected in stats always, they are a part of someones character and therefore, often they are better for a given situation.

10-03-2002, 05:45 PM	#47
Dazooz Minors (Double A) Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 193	Is it the clutch hitter that makes the clutch hit? or is it the clutch hit that makes the clutch hitter? (I believe I have seen someone say that before but I can't remember where I heard or read it, so I'm sorry if it is one of you and I can't give you credit for the quote.) If the latter (which I feel is accurate), then you can't really define someone as a clutch hitter until they have made a clutch hit. Or, better yet, multiple clutch hits. But to say one guy is and one guy isn't is basically moot until you get them to perform in any given situation. I'm of the school of thought that you can't really assign a label of clutch hitter to any player because they are only as much a clutch hitter as their last clutch hit (however you might define that), but there are definitly players you would rather have at bat (or on the mound for that matter) in certain situations. I say let the players define themselves through their actions on the field rather than assigning a certain label to them. Then after their career is over, you can reflect on their statistics and decide for yourself whether or not they were clutch.