Smart, Hard Worker Won't Learn New Position

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by RchW

I can only go with the title and OP which clearly (at least to me) indicates he is not learning 3B.

?? The OP clearly indicates that the guy has 164 exp rating at third, but no position rating. He has clearly "learned" the position, but the game refuses to give him a rating due to his low DP rating. Players can lose position ratings as well as gain them (actually, that happens a lot more often).

[Shadoshryke]

Originally Posted by Questdog

?? The OP clearly indicates that the guy has 164 exp rating at third, but no position rating. He has clearly "learned" the position, but the game refuses to give him a rating due to his low DP rating. Players can lose position ratings as well as gain them (actually, that happens a lot more often).

Oh, and you need a minimum DP rating of 20 to have any bearing on the 3B Resulting Rating. This comes in after the statistics modify the Defensive rating. I know that it tends to show by solidified statistics after Pre-Season, All-Star games (when the player is in the All-Star) at end of regular season, and after the series if the team is in the series. Also seems to update after "training and development" reports.

I have not seen, in my games, the weekly ratings having a lot of bearing on the total ratings. I have not seen anything that indicates that "weekly" pulls affect the development. Unless there is a setting that makes it review that I have not found that forces this.

A 20 DP rating does not indicate a person that regularly makes Double Plays, It is a scaling on familiarity of their support on a scale of 1-250. I have players that only have 1-2 DPs on their record that have over a 40 DP rating.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Shadoshryke

Oh, and you need a minimum DP rating of 20 to have any bearing on the 3B Resulting Rating. This comes in after the statistics modify the Defensive rating. I know that it tends to show by solidified statistics after Pre-Season, All-Star games (when the player is in the All-Star) at end of regular season, and after the series if the team is in the series. Also seems to update after "training and development" reports.

I have not seen, in my games, the weekly ratings having a lot of bearing on the total ratings. I have not seen anything that indicates that "weekly" pulls affect the development. Unless there is a setting that makes it review that I have not found that forces this.

A 20 DP rating does not indicate a person that regularly makes Double Plays, It is a scaling on familiarity of their support on a scale of 1-250. I have players that only have 1-2 DPs on their record that have over a 40 DP rating.

You have made 2 posts and they are both in a language that I do not understand.....

[Shadoshryke]

Originally Posted by Questdog

You have made 2 posts and they are both in a language that I do not understand.....

3B ratings are based on:

Infield ratings
Turn Double Play rating
Position Experience
Resulting Rating

If you 3B is training for a position, the full rating is set faster by having them in a new position in Pre-Season so that they have ratings and expereince by the start of the Season. Simple.

The only thing not showing a rating in from the image provided with the OPs initial post is the "Resulting Rating". This is always blank until the Turn Double Play rating is over 20 (manually tested).

They seem to be able to get that rating as long as they are in that position when a DP occurs, more points when they are a participant in a Double Plays. Correct?

I have a few minor league players that only have 1-3 DPs that they have participated in that have over 40 rating in Turn Double Play.

So, his only issue for getting that "Resulting Rating" for the 3B is that his Turn Double Play rating is under 20.

Game manual tells you when training for new positions most affects the development. Preseason. Then it is slower during the season, so that leads me to believe that it does not update stats to resulting ratings "weekly".

It is possible that I am completely wrong, however the last few times I compared the manual information to my results in game, Matt's posts showed I was on the right approach, even when to others told me I was totally off base.

Now, maybe I am just totally misunderstood the OP and everyone else posts since then. That is possible since it is about 2am here after a long day I am watching CSI and working on a cleaning up a server at the same time as reading the forums.

[Questdog]

Okay, now I don't want to come off as a ****, but I probably already have....

Originally Posted by Shadoshryke

3B ratings are based on:
Infield ratings
Turn Double Play rating
Position Experience
Resulting Rating

The ratings that determine his overall Rating at 3B are:
Infield Range
Infield Arm
Infield Error
Double Play
Position Experience

The rating cannot be based on the "Resulting Rating".

Originally Posted by Shadoshryke

If you 3B is training for a position, the full rating is set faster by having them in a new position in Pre-Season so that they have ratings and expereince by the start of the Season. Simple.

The only rating that will change due to experience is the Experience Rating.

Originally Posted by Shadoshryke

The only thing not showing a rating in from the image provided with the OPs initial post is the "Resulting Rating". This is always blank until the Turn Double Play rating is over 20 (manually tested).

They seem to be able to get that rating as long as they are in that position when a DP occurs, more points when they are a participant in a Double Plays. Correct?

No ratings are affected by results. Turning double plays in games will not make your Double Play rating increase.

[Shadoshryke]

Originally Posted by Questdog

Okay, now I don't want to come off as a ****, but I probably already have....



The ratings that determine his overall Rating at 3B are:
Infield Range
Infield Arm
Infield Error
Double Play
Position Experience

The rating cannot be based on the "Resulting Rating".



The only rating that will change due to experience is the Experience Rating.



No ratings are affected by results. Turning double plays in games will not make your Double Play rating increase.

I think I may not have been clear on what I was saying.

Resulting Rating for 3B is calculated only once values of the others are above a certain amount. It seems that resulting Rating 3B requires a minimum rating of 20 in Turn Double Play.

In multiple manual tests (by modifying ratings manually, Resulting Rating stayed blank until Infield Range, Infield Error, Infield Arm and Turn Double Play are all above a certain value. The "Infield" ratings all need to be above a certain total, and then Turn Double Play needs to be above 20. Then the "Resulting Rating" populates.

I was just looking at the OPs clipped image,and it seems his only issue with that rating scheme was that his players Turn Double Plays was 10 points to low to get the "Resulting Rating".

This is the only possible problem I could see with his 3B in training. That was the only thing that wasn't showing.

[majesty95]

So the question remains, how do you improve the DP rating? And should that rating prohibit an overall rating being generated?

[majesty95]

Originally Posted by mgoetze

Adrian Beltre has turned 13 double plays in over 20,000 career innings at 3B. Pablo Sandoval has turned 4 double plays in about 6,600 innings. Alex Rodriguez was once a SS, it is surely not for lack of skill that he has turned only 6 double plays in over 10,000 innings at 3B.

Who cares whether OOTP is giving him a rating at the position, just play him there. If it costs you an out every other year because he couldn't turn a double play, who will notice?

Where did you get these stats? Beltre has turned 427 double plays in 20,351.2 innings at 3B...

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by majesty95

So the question remains, how do you improve the DP rating? And should that rating prohibit an overall rating being generated?

The rating is generated (so to speak);it is just not shown.

[majesty95]

Originally Posted by Questdog

The rating is generated (so to speak);it is just not shown.

I get that. It just doesn't make such sense.

GM :"Hey Mr. Scout, tell me how Player A is skilled in comparison to other players at his position."

Scout: "Sorry boss, can't do that. I don't think he's good enough at turning double plays yet."

GM: "Then factor that in and give me a rating so that I can see how he compares to others."

Scout: "Can't do it boss. If he's not good enough at turning double plays then he's not worth my time rating."

[phenom]

Originally Posted by majesty95

Where did you get these stats? Beltre has turned 427 double plays in 20,351.2 innings at 3B...

And Pablo Sandoval has turned over 100 double plays at 3B.

Alex Rodriguez - 205

[madJ]

Originally Posted by majesty95

Where did you get these stats? Beltre has turned 427 double plays in 20,351.2 innings at 3B...

Originally Posted by phenom

And Pablo Sandoval has turned over 100 double plays at 3B.

Alex Rodriguez - 205

Turning double plays is something different than starting double plays. How often did you see those 3Bs actually TURN double plays?

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by majesty95

I get that. It just doesn't make such sense.

GM :"Hey Mr. Scout, tell me how Player A is skilled in comparison to other players at his position."

Scout: "Sorry boss, can't do that. I don't think he's good enough at turning double plays yet."

GM: "Then factor that in and give me a rating so that I can see how he compares to others."

Scout: "Can't do it boss. If he's not good enough at turning double plays then he's not worth my time rating."

I'd be okay with the current state of affairs, if it kept the AI from playing guys at the position, but the AI does not seem to care if the player has his rating shown or not and will happily play him at a position we are told he is not qualified to play.

[phenom]

Originally Posted by madJ

Turning double plays is something different than starting double plays. How often did you see those 3Bs actually TURN double plays?

[madJ]

@phenom: How often do those third basemen receive the first throw and then relay to first base in order to complete the double play? Their career totals in the DP column of their fielding stats show the total number of double plays they were part of. But that number doesn't reflect how often they relayed the throw in order to complete a double play. Over 90% of the time they are the ones starting the double plays which is what mgoetze was stating.
And the ability to receive the ball and quickly relay it to complete the double play is reflected in the "Turn Double Play" rating, as I understand it.

[phenom]

Originally Posted by madJ

@phenom: How often do those third basemen receive the first throw and then relay to first base in order to complete the double play? Their career totals in the DP column of their fielding stats show the total number of double plays they were part of. But that number doesn't reflect how often they relayed the throw in order to complete a double play. Over 90% of the time they are the ones starting the double plays which is what mgoetze was stating.
And the ability to receive the ball and quickly relay it to complete the double play is reflected in the "Turn Double Play" rating, as I understand it.

This doesn't answer the question of where the other poster got his stats.

Also...

Originally Posted by Questdog

1) Just because the guy does not have a rating shown does not mean he cannot play 3B and do a credible job. I am not sure what the point of disallowing a rating to show for players under certain rating thresholds, but it seems to have no effect.

2) DP ratings in OOTP are for starting DP's, not for pivoting,

[madJ]

What's the source for that statement? Questdog is knowledgable and well regarded here, but the OOTP manual is not confirming this very statement. There the part reads:

Turn Double Play

Turn Double Play is a measure of how well infielders, pitchers, and catchers can turn infield double plays. Players with high Turn Double Play ratings are more likely to successfully turn double plays when given the opportunity.

[phenom]

I think it's kind of shortsighted to argue the semantics of "start" a double play or "turn" a double play. I think it's been established in this thread that middle infielders generally have higher DP ratings than corner guys, but I have a hard time accepting the idea that corner infielders don't need DP ratings simply because they don't pivot.

[Questdog]

The only position that would utilize a pivot rating would be second base. They are the only fielders that have to receive a throw and then turn around 180 degrees and throw it, all while avoiding the runner who is trying to interfere with the process.

It is a skill that should be modeled in baseball games because there is a real difference between how effective various players are in doing this. Some (Mazeroski) raise it to an art form and others never master the basic process (Rose, Carew).

However, there is no such thing in OOTP.

P.S. My reference to the players' skill levels above is not my own opinion; I never saw any of those players play second base. It is based on what I have read over the years.

[t-bone shuffle]

I've been under the impression, likely incorrect based upon what I see here from long-timers, that the DP rating was as much of an "athleticism" rating as an actual evaluation of DP turning/starting ability. Meant as a means of reflecting the athletic abilities required to play SS and 2B (and CF and on), thus reducing the number of players with "range" and "arm" ratings which might, on the surface, make you think they could be effective middle infielders to accurately reflect that simply, 3B for example, is a less difficult, and less defensively valued position overall.

Hope this makes some sense.

FWIW.