Pete Rose sycophants

[chucksabr]

To be fair, the HoF mission statement does not contemplate being "honorable", as it is widely defined. It contemplates only honoring excellence, which is a very different concept.

But also to be fair, Rule #5 of BBWAA's Rules for Election stipulates that "[v]oting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played," and while Rose is well-qualified by at least three of these standards, he fails in spectacular fashion on two of them, and quite possibly three.

It can be fairly debated whether the Baseball Hall of Fame should even consider attributes such as character and integrity for inclusion while other sports, notably football, have no such requirement. But it can't be seriously debated that as long as the Baseball Hall does require those two characteristics, Pete Rose will always fall very, very short against them.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

It can be fairly debated whether the Baseball Hall of Fame should even consider attributes such as character and integrity for inclusion while other sports, notably football, have no such requirement.

On the other hand, football* (and hockey and basketball) don't seem to have had same the kind of sordid history with gambling the way baseball did.

*North American-style football, that is. There have been issues with gambling/game-fixing in European football. Indeed, Declan Hill's book The Fix detailed the degree to which gambling has allegedly affected World Cup competitions.

[chucksabr]

Maybe. I would bet each of those sports have had their scrapes and gambling and the law. We're much more knowledgeable about baseball's history than the history of the other sports.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Breaking a fundamental rule of the sport is hardly an example of honorable excellence within the game. It is in fact the exact opposite.

That's not what they said.

[ihatenames]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

On the other hand, football* (and hockey and basketball) don't seem to have had same the kind of sordid history with gambling the way baseball did.

*North American-style football, that is. There have been issues with gambling/game-fixing in European football. Indeed, Declan Hill's book The Fix detailed the degree to which gambling has allegedly affected World Cup competitions.

If I recall Wayne Gretzky and/or his wife was investigated for being involved in a gambling ring a few years ago. Operation Slapshot I believe it was called. I know an assistant coach and a few others took the fall for it. And then there was the NBA gambling scandal involving referee Tim Donaghy.

I would say gambling is part of just about every sport. Those were recent examples off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others out there. And for every busted ring. I'm sure there is several that go undiscovered.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by ihatenames

I would say gambling is part of just about every sport. Those were recent examples off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others out there. And for every busted ring. I'm sure there is several that go undiscovered.

Which is why MLB's crystal clear rules and unforgiving treatment of those players or other personnel caught up in gambling is important. The message is clear: cross that line and a heavy price will be paid, no matter how good a player you might be.

[MarkInCincy]

The debate over Pete in the HOF could go forever regardless if he ever gets in or not.

However I don't think there is any debate over the fact that he got the absolutely most out of his talent. If he had the same work ethic and played as hard and had the talent of a Strawberry, Mantle, etc what kind of #'s would he have had????

Just my 2 cents worth

[ihatenames]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Which is why MLB's crystal clear rules and unforgiving treatment of those players or other personnel caught up in gambling is important. The message is clear: cross that line and a heavy price will be paid, no matter how good a player you might be.

I agree with the message. However, I would argue that a heavy price has already been paid. It's been over 25 years since Rose was banned and I think it's time to commute his sentence. I don't ever want to see him in a leadership position where he could impact a game again. However, in terms of the HOF and baseball in general, I think he's served more than enough time.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by ihatenames

I agree with the message. However, I would argue that a heavy price has already been paid. It's been over 25 years since Rose was banned and I think it's time to commute his sentence. I don't ever want to see him in a leadership position where he could impact a game again. However, in terms of the HOF and baseball in general, I think he's served more than enough time.

Well, given that baseball's explicitly-stated penalty for a player gambling on games in which his team is involved is permanent ineligibility, I'd say Pete Rose hasn't served nearly enough time.

In any event, if Pete Rose's sentence is commuted, then wouldn't Baseball have to commute the sentence of every manager and player who has ever been declared permanently ineligible for gambling?

[ihatenames]

Originally Posted by chucksabr

Well, given that baseball's expressed penalty for a player gambling on games his team is involved in is permanent ineligibility, I'd say Pete Rose hasn't served nearly enough time.

In any event, if Pete Rose's sentence is commuted, then wouldn't Baseball have to commute the sentence of every manager and player who has ever been declared permanently ineligible for gambling?

I wouldn't be opposed to it. However, when Rose was banned there was a stipulation was that Rose could apply for reinstatement every year after ten years had passed. So there is language in Rose's ban that allows for reinstatement.

[chucksabr]

Originally Posted by ihatenames

I wouldn't be opposed to it. However, when Rose was banned there was a stipulation was that Rose could apply for reinstatement every year after ten years had passed. So there is language in Rose's ban that allows for reinstatement.

Is there such specific language? I wasn't aware of that.

In any event, that's your opinion and you have a right to it. But as far as I can tell, if players who gamble on or against their own teams, or players who throw games, can simply be reinstated or never even be made ineligible, then there's no real reason to keep someone who might be inclined or persuaded to throw games from doing so. Personally, I wouldn't want to see that kind of situation prevail in baseball, because then I would always wonder whether someone is actively trying to throw the game I'm watching, and that's something I have never had to even think about as far as baseball is concerned. I prefer it that way.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by ihatenames

If I recall Wayne Gretzky and/or his wife was investigated for being involved in a gambling ring a few years ago. Operation Slapshot I believe it was called. I know an assistant coach and a few others took the fall for it. And then there was the NBA gambling scandal involving referee Tim Donaghy.

I would say gambling is part of just about every sport. Those were recent examples off the top of my head, I'm sure there are others out there. And for every busted ring. I'm sure there is several that go undiscovered.

It goes both ways. Connie Hawkins was deprived of a much longer professional basketball career through guilt by association on a betting scandal.

[Honorable_Pawn]

A Sicko-fami cant????

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by Honorable_Pawn

A Sicko-fami cant????

If nothing else, at least I learned a new word from this thread.

[MBarrett]

It's hypocritical to allow the old generation of players into the Hall with all of their warts and significant character flaws, and then suddenly get a moral conscience. If you're one of the greatest baseball players of all time, you should be enshrined, period. If we stopped letting our kids look up to athletes as role models maybe we wouldn't need to worry about these debates.

[Orcin]

Yes, and by the way, we have already enshrined players who gambled on baseball games in which they were participants.

Cobb And Speaker Got Themselves Into A Real Fix - Chicago Tribune

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by MBarrett

If we stopped letting our kids look up to athletes as role models maybe we wouldn't need to worry about these debates.

Whom else do you want them to look up to? Politicians?

[MBarrett]

Originally Posted by Westheim

Whom else do you want them to look up to? Politicians?

I dunno, maybe Mom & Dad? You know, parenting.

[CommishJoe]

Originally Posted by Orcin

Yes, and by the way, we have already enshrined players who gambled on baseball games in which they were participants.

Cobb And Speaker Got Themselves Into A Real Fix - Chicago Tribune

The rule wasn't on the books at the time, so you can't compare Rose with this. You might be able to compare Shoeless Joe with this, but not Rose.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by CommishJoe

The rule wasn't on the books at the time, so you can't compare Rose with this. You might be able to compare Shoeless Joe with this, but not Rose.

And, there was no rule against andro when McGwire took it.

Integrity has nothing to do with breaking rules. It has to do with right and wrong. Fixing games is wrong. It doesn't matter if you get caught. It doesn't matter if there is a rule against it or not.