Your 2015 Hall of Fame Ballot - Page 3

RchW · 12-11-2014, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC

Whoops....

I'll retract most of what I said above. I looked at the wrong WAR number in haste. His bbref oWAR is 95, but his overall bbref WAR is only like 71, which is almost exactly the same as Trammell. That makes more sense. I stand corrected. I usually try to research my points a little better before posting (I dislike trolling as much as the next person). I dropped the ball here.

Overall, I still think the 1100 hits is a big deal and there are a few other minor points. But as you note, it's to-may-to v. to-mah-to to some degree.

No problem. I've done the same myself. Any baseball discussion is a good thing.

mirrf · 12-11-2014, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC

Overall, I still think the 1100 hits is a big deal and there are a few other minor points. But as you note, it's to-may-to v. to-mah-to to some degree.

The 1100 more hits, the 200 hits in postseason (vs 17), and other things like that are a big deal. That stuff pushes Jeter ahead of Trammell by quite a bit IMO.

But the fact that we can have this discussion really shows how under appreciated Trammell is and that he should be considered for the HOF.

RchW · 12-11-2014, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirrf

The 1100 more hits, the 200 hits in postseason (vs 17), and other things like that are a big deal. That stuff pushes Jeter ahead of Trammell by quite a bit IMO.

But the fact that we can have this discussion really shows how under appreciated Trammell is and that he should be considered for the HOF.

That is the point. Jeter's legacy is indisputable.

Orcin · 12-12-2014, 10:12 AM

The more you guys post, the more convinced that I become on Trammell. I would have said Jeter is a no-brainer and Trammell is borderline. Obviously, media coverage influences opinion to a large degree. Good job presenting the actual numbers.

TribeFanInNC · 12-12-2014, 11:09 AM

The difference with Jeter is that his offense was truly legendary. At least by bbref oWAR (the offensive component of WAR), he is literally the 22nd best batter to ever play baseball. Better than Mike Schimidt. Better than George Brett. Better than Albert Pujols or Manny Ramirez. The guys just ahead of him are Jimmie Foxx and Eddie Mathews. Again rarified air, so to speak.

So it is not completely just intangible things like playing for the Yankees or media hype. Even from a dorky stats perspective, it's a bit of a leap of faith to truly believe in advanced defensive metrics enough to say those extra 1100 H, 700 R, 80 HR, etc... are balanced out by the defensive runs saved of Trammell. In general I think it's fair to say more people are comfortable with the offensive advanced metrics than the defensive ones. So those will continue to get more weight with that subsegment.

David Watts · 12-12-2014, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC

The difference with Jeter is that his offense was truly legendary. At least by bbref oWAR (the offensive component of WAR), he is literally the 22nd best batter to ever play baseball. Better than Mike Schimidt. Better than George Brett. Better than Albert Pujols or Manny Ramirez. The guys just ahead of him are Jimmie Foxx and Eddie Mathews. Again rarified air, so to speak.

So it is not completely just intangible things like playing for the Yankees or media hype. Even from a dorky stats perspective, it's a bit of a leap of faith to truly believe in advanced defensive metrics enough to say those extra 1100 H, 700 R, 80 HR, etc... are balanced out by the defensive runs saved of Trammell. In general I think it's fair to say more people are comfortable with the offensive advanced metrics than the defensive ones. So those will continue to get more weight with that subsegment.

I'm surprised a certain someone hasn't posted that brilliant retort "Jeter wasn't even the best shortstop on his team" in response to your post. That one always blows me away and in my opinion puts an end to any thought of Jeter being a star.

The Game · 12-13-2014, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Watts

I'm surprised a certain someone hasn't posted that brilliant retort "Jeter wasn't even the best shortstop on his team" in response to your post. That one always blows me away and in my opinion puts an end to any thought of Jeter being a star.

You don't think Jeter is a star?

hfield007 · 12-13-2014, 04:40 AM

LF, Barry Bonds
SP, Randy Johnson
SP, Roger Clemens
SP, Pedro Martinez
1B, Jeff Bagwell
SP, Curt Schilling
SS, Alan Trammell
SP, Mike Mussina
RF, Sammy Sosa
RF, Larry Walker

Incredibly difficult ballot. Trimmed it from 15 names. Richest ballot in history of voting I think.

Orcin · 12-14-2014, 11:46 AM

Randy Johnson is still a unanimous selection. This forum rarely agrees on anything, so that is quite an honor!

Latest results (21 votes):

Randy Johnson 100%
Pedro Martinez 95%
Craig Biggio 86%
Jeff Bagwell 86%
---------------------
Mike Piazza 57%
Tim Raines 57%
Alan Trammell 57%
John Smoltz 52%
Mike Mussina 48%
Roger Clemens 48%
Barry Bonds 43%
Curt Schilling 43%
Edgar Martinez 24%
Larry Walker 24%

Westheim · 12-14-2014, 01:31 PM

Oh look, the baseball noob thinks he gets a vote as well.

Randy Johnson (!!)
Pedro Martinez
Craig Biggio
Mike Mussina
Curt Schilling
John Smoltz

metsguy234 · 12-21-2014, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tram2Whitaker

Forgive my ignorance, I thought Lee Smith was already in; so he'd be my first vote.

1. Lee Smith
2. Alan Trammell
3. Craig Biggio
4. Jeff Bagwell
5. Randy Johnson
6. Mike Mussina
7. Mike Piazza
8. Larry Walker

I'm cutting it off at 8, because there are about 5 or 6 guys who deserve that 9th & 10th vote.

How do you vote for Mike Mussina, both not John Smoltz or Pedro Martinez?

hfield007 · 12-21-2014, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsguy234

How do you vote for Mike Mussina, both not John Smoltz or Pedro Martinez?

I'd put Mussina in well ahead of Smoltz...

metsguy234 · 12-21-2014, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hfield007

I'd put Mussina in well ahead of Smoltz...

That's actually a good point. I hadn't taken a close enough look at Smoltz's stats. I certainly agree that Mussina should be in the Hall. My point stands with Pedro though. I'm wondering how someone can think that guys like Lee Smith are more worthy for the Hall than Pedro Martinez.

And, aside from comparing different players, I don't know how someone can make a case not to put Pedro on their ballot, particularly when they have empty slots available. I can't wait to see what excuses some of the BBWAA writers will come up with to leave him off their ballots.

The Game · 12-22-2014, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hfield007

I'd put Mussina in well ahead of Smoltz...

How? The only stat that makes Moose better is 270 Wins vs 213. Smoltz also chips in 154 S, a 3.33 ERA vs 3.68 Smoltz has more K in fewer IP. Moose only has 4 more CG despite being in a DH league. I am sure Smoltz is better in all the geek stat categories also.

David Watts · 12-22-2014, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Game

You don't think Jeter is a star?

Just being sarcastic.

TribeFanInNC · 12-22-2014, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Game

How? The only stat that makes Moose better is 270 Wins vs 213. Smoltz also chips in 154 S, a 3.33 ERA vs 3.68 Smoltz has more K in fewer IP. Moose only has 4 more CG despite being in a DH league. I am sure Smoltz is better in all the geek stat categories also.

Actually, they are pretty similar in geek stat land also. OPS+ is 125 (JS) v. 123 (MM), Fangraphs WAR is 79 (JS) v. 82 (MM), xFIP is 3.29 (JS) v.3.69 (MM). The biggest contrast is really the 154 Sv v. 57 W with xFIP being a little different as well.

I think Smoltz would have been the better choice if he could trade those 300 IP as RP + 1 injured yr for about 125 starts.

Tram2Whitaker · 12-25-2014, 07:43 PM

I put Moose in based on W/L record alone; and that's not Smoltz's fault, it's the Brave's (and his injury). Like I said, Smoltz and Martinez were on a list of 5 or 6 players for those last 2 spots; any of whom would make it on a weaker ballot. I would also adjust the stats of Clemens and Schilling to account for PEDs; they'd be on that list as well.

HerbD · 12-28-2014, 01:57 AM

Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez
John Smoltz
Mike Piazza
Craig Biggio
Jeff Bagwell
Barry Bonds
Roger Clemens
Mike Mussina
Curt Schilling

Orcin · 12-28-2014, 11:01 AM

Last update before the final tally...

23 voters:

Randy Johnson 100%
Pedro Martinez 96%
Craig Biggio 87%
Jeff Bagwell 83%
---------------------
Mike Piazza 57%
John Smoltz 57%
Mike Mussina 52%
Tim Raines 52%
Alan Trammell 52%
Roger Clemens 48%
Curt Schilling 48%
Barry Bonds 43%
Edgar Martinez 22%
Larry Walker 22%

Reminder: voting closes on the morning of January 3 (whenever I get up, have some coffee, and feel like posting the final total).

Jason · 12-28-2014, 10:10 PM

Biggio, Piazza, Bagwell, Clemens, Bonds, Johnson, P Martinez, Smoltz, Sheffield, McGuire

12-14-2014, 01:31 PM	#50
Westheim Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Germany Posts: 13,770	Oh look, the baseball noob thinks he gets a vote as well. Randy Johnson (!!) Pedro Martinez Craig Biggio Mike Mussina Curt Schilling John Smoltz __________________ Portland Raccoons, 92 years of excell-.... of baseball: Furballs here! 1983 * 1989 * 1991 * 1992 * 1993 * 1995 * 1996 * 2010 * 2017 * 2018 * 2019 * 2026 * 2028 * 2035 * 2037 * 2044 * 2045 * 2046 * 2047 * 2048 * 2051 * 2054 * 2055 * 2061 1 OSANAI : 2 POWELL : 7 NOMURA \| RAMOS : 8 REECE : 10 BROWN : 15 HALL : 27 FERNANDEZ : 28 CASAS : 31 CARMONA : 32 WEST : 39 TONER : 46 SAITO Resident Mets Cynic - The Mets from 1962 onwards, here.

12-25-2014, 07:43 PM	#57
Tram2Whitaker All Star Reserve Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 619	I put Moose in based on W/L record alone; and that's not Smoltz's fault, it's the Brave's (and his injury). Like I said, Smoltz and Martinez were on a list of 5 or 6 players for those last 2 spots; any of whom would make it on a weaker ballot. I would also adjust the stats of Clemens and Schilling to account for PEDs; they'd be on that list as well. __________________ 404'd!

12-28-2014, 01:57 AM	#58
HerbD All Star Reserve Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Indiana Posts: 972	Randy Johnson Pedro Martinez John Smoltz Mike Piazza Craig Biggio Jeff Bagwell Barry Bonds Roger Clemens Mike Mussina Curt Schilling __________________

12-28-2014, 10:10 PM	#60
Jason Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 3,845	Biggio, Piazza, Bagwell, Clemens, Bonds, Johnson, P Martinez, Smoltz, Sheffield, McGuire Last edited by Jason; 12-29-2014 at 12:11 AM.

12-12-2014, 10:12 AM	#44
Orcin Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Indiana Posts: 9,850	The more you guys post, the more convinced that I become on Trammell. I would have said Jeter is a no-brainer and Trammell is borderline. Obviously, media coverage influences opinion to a large degree. Good job presenting the actual numbers.

12-12-2014, 11:09 AM	#45
TribeFanInNC Hall Of Famer Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,019	The difference with Jeter is that his offense was truly legendary. At least by bbref oWAR (the offensive component of WAR), he is literally the 22nd best batter to ever play baseball. Better than Mike Schimidt. Better than George Brett. Better than Albert Pujols or Manny Ramirez. The guys just ahead of him are Jimmie Foxx and Eddie Mathews. Again rarified air, so to speak. So it is not completely just intangible things like playing for the Yankees or media hype. Even from a dorky stats perspective, it's a bit of a leap of faith to truly believe in advanced defensive metrics enough to say those extra 1100 H, 700 R, 80 HR, etc... are balanced out by the defensive runs saved of Trammell. In general I think it's fair to say more people are comfortable with the offensive advanced metrics than the defensive ones. So those will continue to get more weight with that subsegment.

12-13-2014, 04:40 AM	#48
hfield007 All Star Starter Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 1,713	LF, Barry Bonds SP, Randy Johnson SP, Roger Clemens SP, Pedro Martinez 1B, Jeff Bagwell SP, Curt Schilling SS, Alan Trammell SP, Mike Mussina RF, Sammy Sosa RF, Larry Walker Incredibly difficult ballot. Trimmed it from 15 names. Richest ballot in history of voting I think.

12-14-2014, 11:46 AM	#49
Orcin Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Indiana Posts: 9,850	Randy Johnson is still a unanimous selection. This forum rarely agrees on anything, so that is quite an honor! Latest results (21 votes): Randy Johnson 100% Pedro Martinez 95% Craig Biggio 86% Jeff Bagwell 86% --------------------- Mike Piazza 57% Tim Raines 57% Alan Trammell 57% John Smoltz 52% Mike Mussina 48% Roger Clemens 48% Barry Bonds 43% Curt Schilling 43% Edgar Martinez 24% Larry Walker 24%

12-28-2014, 11:01 AM	#59
Orcin Hall Of Famer Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Indiana Posts: 9,850	Last update before the final tally... 23 voters: Randy Johnson 100% Pedro Martinez 96% Craig Biggio 87% Jeff Bagwell 83% --------------------- Mike Piazza 57% John Smoltz 57% Mike Mussina 52% Tim Raines 52% Alan Trammell 52% Roger Clemens 48% Curt Schilling 48% Barry Bonds 43% Edgar Martinez 22% Larry Walker 22% Reminder: voting closes on the morning of January 3 (whenever I get up, have some coffee, and feel like posting the final total).