Trading catchers - Page 3

RchW · 12-10-2012, 06:36 PM

I think it's an unwitting red herring to use "stars" or overall ratings to determine number of elite catchers. There are plenty of average or less offensive catchers that would be considered elite defensively.

We do know that IRL teams will do several things.

Live with average defensive skills if the catcher is an offensive force.

The leash is short though. If that catcher is in a slump the backup will get playing time. You don't see many catchers (Maur the exception) getting long term big money contracts.

Almost always have a backup who is good to excellent defensively.

Will take whatever they can get cheap on the market.

Most teams put any money they have into other positions unless they have a good offensive catcher. That's why you see a revolving door with the majority of catchers backing up on good/rich teams but often starting on poor/poor teams.

It seems that catchers are rarely traded because the market applies either too high a value (locked up) or no value at all. Why would you trade for a position that will be full of similar FA at the end of each year.

BIG17EASY · 12-10-2012, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sc_superstar

Most players who have a rating at catcher would at least be back-up or rostered 3rd catchers who back up other positions (guys like Yan Gomes, Jake Fox type guys). Unless you had a pitcher who happened to be able to play catcher, most guys with a rating will get some innings at C at some point in a 162 game schedule

That doesn't mean they are a 4-star (or whatever star) catcher. The game sets overall and potential ratings based on the position a player is set to. If a player is a five-star first baseman but also has ratings at catcher, that doesn't mean he's a five-star catcher.

In my world, Jesus Montero is 3.5 stars right now. He's listed as a DH and has played a total of 26 innings in at catcher in 679 career games in my world. But he has ratings at catcher (very poor). If I change his position from DH to catcher, his rating drops to 2.5, as you can see in the screenshots.

And I go back to my previous point, two people (myself and Sandman) have given examples of worlds with significantly less 4-star and above catchers, refuting the claim of there being too many "elite" catchers.

PSUColonel · 12-10-2012, 07:19 PM

Here is the list of MLB catchers in my league:

The Wolf · 12-10-2012, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RchW

We do know that IRL teams will do several things.

Live with average defensive skills if the catcher is an offensive force.

Almost always have a backup who is good to excellent defensively.

Will take whatever they can get cheap on the market.

This is what I do about catchers in OOTP.

The Wolf · 12-10-2012, 08:07 PM

Especially the last part. A cheap catcher who is excellent defensively is simply irresistible.

BIG17EASY · 12-10-2012, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Here is the list of MLB catchers in my league:

I thought you didn't use stars? Anyway, 11 catchers four stars or higher isn't a large number, at least not in my opinion. You do have a good crop of potential 4-star and up, though. But like I told sc, sim out five years at a time and see if the number of catchers rated that high is consistent. If it is, then you'll have fuel for a possible argument.

PSUColonel · 12-10-2012, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

I thought you didn't use stars? Anyway, 11 catchers four stars or higher isn't a large number, at least not in my opinion. You do have a good crop of potential 4-star and up, though. But like I told sc, sim out five years at a time and see if the number of catchers rated that high is consistent. If it is, then you'll have fuel for a possible argument.

I don't...I backed my game up...went in, turned on the stars, and then went back to my backed up game.

sc_superstar · 12-10-2012, 11:19 PM

I wasnt trying to argue anyone, nor add fuel to any argument, people get too worked up when someone posts their own experiences, and thats what I did, my word is not to be taken as gospel, and I never gave anyone any indication that I felt my opinion was superior. I replied on a thread with someone asking for others experiences and I gave mine based upon what leagues I have going, because I just deleted a whole bunch that I wasnt playing.

Catcher seems to be the one position that shouldn't have as many elite players as others, while the ratio may not be that bad, as a whole I don't believe there are as many "elite" catchers as what OOTP shows again from my personal experience. To me an elite catcher would be one who plays either - Elite D and slighly above catcher average offense, Elite offense and not a defensive liability, or someone who is above average in both facets,

And there aren't honestly very many catchers who can hit and play gold glove level D.

Even catchers that play above average D seems to be a rarity, Of all the 36 players that finished 2012 with a positive Total Fielding Runs Above Average only 33% played over 100 games. And only a handful would be solid offensive contributors. So you would expect maybe 3-5 players in that elite status (Molina, Wieters, Posey and you could probably make a case for Montero and or Avila).

I just feel like the distribution in talent levels seems a bit too top and bottom heavy, a light hitting catcher with elite D deserves a bit better and the elite catchers need to be toned down. If I see differences as I progress further than I will say so.

MizzouRah · 12-10-2012, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

I thought you didn't use stars? Anyway, 11 catchers four stars or higher isn't a large number, at least not in my opinion. You do have a good crop of potential 4-star and up, though. But like I told sc, sim out five years at a time and see if the number of catchers rated that high is consistent. If it is, then you'll have fuel for a possible argument.

I'm in the year 2024 and there are 3 "elite" catchers in my league. Seems about dead on to me.

PSUColonel · 12-11-2012, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MizzouRah

I'm in the year 2024 and there are 3 "elite" catchers in my league. Seems about dead on to me.

That doesn't seem bad at all actually/

sc_superstar · 12-11-2012, 09:30 AM

Yup 3 seems good

rpriske · 12-11-2012, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sc_superstar

I wasnt trying to argue anyone, nor add fuel to any argument, people get too worked up when someone posts their own experiences, and thats what I did, my word is not to be taken as gospel, and I never gave anyone any indication that I felt my opinion was superior. I replied on a thread with someone asking for others experiences and I gave mine based upon what leagues I have going, because I just deleted a whole bunch that I wasnt playing.

This quote is valuable. There are WAAAAAY too many people on these boards that take any comment that doesn't match their own experience to be an attack of some sort.

This thread is ridiculous. All these people attacking the OP for what? Did he make demands? Did he claim that the game must make changes?

No.

He asked for opinions on a topic. He was opening discussion on a discussion board.

Feel free to disagree with his findings, but don't attack him for wanting to discuss something.

Most people on this board are great, but that ones that aren't make this place somewhat toxic...

BIG17EASY · 12-11-2012, 10:27 AM

There's also a real fine line between what some people consider an attack and what others consider candid discussion. Presenting a different opinion or examples that go against a certain claim doesn't constitute an attack.

If a thread full of points and counterpoints is considered ridiculous, I hope these discussions forums can be as absurd as possible.

sc_superstar · 12-11-2012, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BIG17EASY

I thought you didn't use stars? Anyway, 11 catchers four stars or higher isn't a large number, at least not in my opinion. You do have a good crop of potential 4-star and up, though. But like I told sc, sim out five years at a time and see if the number of catchers rated that high is consistent. If it is, then you'll have fuel for a possible argument.

Noone has to "sim out 5 years" to appease anyone else's view. When someone tells me or anyone else what they have to do to have an opinion, then yeah that comes off a certain way.

BIG17EASY · 12-11-2012, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sc_superstar

Noone has to "sim out 5 years" to appease anyone else's view. When someone tells me or anyone else what they have to do to have an opinion, then yeah that comes off a certain way.

I'm not telling anyone to do anything, and I didn't say to sim five years at a time to appease my view. I was suggesting it so you and PSU would have more data to support your claim. My point in suggesting that was simply that we need more data than one or two people saying something to the effect of "my world currently has x amount of elite catchers, so maybe OOTP creates too many catchers."

If you read these forums regularly (and maybe you do), you'll see that when someone presents a possible problem with the game, others will give their opinion and provide ways to prove or disprove the claim. That was my objective. If I came across as bossy or attacking, I apologize.

sc_superstar · 12-11-2012, 11:28 AM

No need to apologize, im not easily offended. All I was saying is no one has a wrong personal experience.

BIG17EASY · 12-11-2012, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sc_superstar

No need to apologize, im not easily offended. All I was saying is no one has a wrong personal experience.

And I never meant to come across that way. I think one thing we can all agree on is that just about anything is possible in OOTP, which is one of the reasons I love the game.

sc_superstar · 12-11-2012, 12:12 PM

I agree there, Having a player develop so many ways and having teams that can stay on top or have extreme parity is great

PSUColonel · 12-11-2012, 02:49 PM

Ok..everyone, now that we've all shared a hug

let's get back on topic. I am wondering though, if part of the reason for my experience IS perhaps because I have not played very far into the future. One thing I should remember, is that the game didn't generate the players in my MLB, they were all edited for the MLB quickstart.

12-10-2012, 06:36 PM	#41
RchW Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Toronto ON by way of Glasgow UK Posts: 15,629	I think it's an unwitting red herring to use "stars" or overall ratings to determine number of elite catchers. There are plenty of average or less offensive catchers that would be considered elite defensively. We do know that IRL teams will do several things. Live with average defensive skills if the catcher is an offensive force. The leash is short though. If that catcher is in a slump the backup will get playing time. You don't see many catchers (Maur the exception) getting long term big money contracts. Almost always have a backup who is good to excellent defensively. Will take whatever they can get cheap on the market. Most teams put any money they have into other positions unless they have a good offensive catcher. That's why you see a revolving door with the majority of catchers backing up on good/rich teams but often starting on poor/poor teams. It seems that catchers are rarely traded because the market applies either too high a value (locked up) or no value at all. Why would you trade for a position that will be full of similar FA at the end of each year. __________________ Cheers RichW If you’re looking for a good cause to donate money to please consider a Donation to Parkinson’s Canada. It may help me have a better future and if not me, someone else. Thanks. “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” Frank Wilhoit

12-10-2012, 07:19 PM	#43
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,106	Here is the list of MLB catchers in my league: Attached Images

12-10-2012, 11:19 PM	#48
sc_superstar Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 407	I wasnt trying to argue anyone, nor add fuel to any argument, people get too worked up when someone posts their own experiences, and thats what I did, my word is not to be taken as gospel, and I never gave anyone any indication that I felt my opinion was superior. I replied on a thread with someone asking for others experiences and I gave mine based upon what leagues I have going, because I just deleted a whole bunch that I wasnt playing. Catcher seems to be the one position that shouldn't have as many elite players as others, while the ratio may not be that bad, as a whole I don't believe there are as many "elite" catchers as what OOTP shows again from my personal experience. To me an elite catcher would be one who plays either - Elite D and slighly above catcher average offense, Elite offense and not a defensive liability, or someone who is above average in both facets, And there aren't honestly very many catchers who can hit and play gold glove level D. Even catchers that play above average D seems to be a rarity, Of all the 36 players that finished 2012 with a positive Total Fielding Runs Above Average only 33% played over 100 games. And only a handful would be solid offensive contributors. So you would expect maybe 3-5 players in that elite status (Molina, Wieters, Posey and you could probably make a case for Montero and or Avila). I just feel like the distribution in talent levels seems a bit too top and bottom heavy, a light hitting catcher with elite D deserves a bit better and the elite catchers need to be toned down. If I see differences as I progress further than I will say so.

12-11-2012, 09:30 AM	#51
sc_superstar Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 407	Yup 3 seems good

12-11-2012, 10:27 AM	#53
BIG17EASY Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 3,291	There's also a real fine line between what some people consider an attack and what others consider candid discussion. Presenting a different opinion or examples that go against a certain claim doesn't constitute an attack. If a thread full of points and counterpoints is considered ridiculous, I hope these discussions forums can be as absurd as possible.

12-11-2012, 11:28 AM	#56
sc_superstar Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 407	No need to apologize, im not easily offended. All I was saying is no one has a wrong personal experience.

12-11-2012, 12:12 PM	#58
sc_superstar Major Leagues Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 407	I agree there, Having a player develop so many ways and having teams that can stay on top or have extreme parity is great

12-11-2012, 02:49 PM	#59
PSUColonel Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 13,106	Ok..everyone, now that we've all shared a hug let's get back on topic. I am wondering though, if part of the reason for my experience IS perhaps because I have not played very far into the future. One thing I should remember, is that the game didn't generate the players in my MLB, they were all edited for the MLB quickstart.