A poll about women's / mixed leagues

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by shawa666

Regulations changed anyway. No way in hell would the MLB approve a park with a 500ft center field fence like there were in the deadball era. Pitcher's mound height was 15 inches until 1969 where it was lowered to 10 inches. Regulations change all the time. This argument is irrelevant.

It's not an argument, IT'S A FACT. They played a version of softball. The rules were changed to be more baseball-like over the years due to fan dissatisfaction but women have never played regulation baseball. Ever.

That's a fact and all the science fiction wishes in the world can't change it.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

A lot of history is sexist. Racist, too. It is what it is. Facts don't have to apologize for themselves.

So you'd be ok with us being able to make segregated leagues in OOTP?

Originally Posted by The Wolf

And if you think you will ever see women in the Show I have some dandy beachfront lots in Arizona to sell you.

I never said it would happen in real life, not on a regular basis anyway. I've said I think it's possible that one day a woman may get a cup of coffee, which isn't quite the same thing.

Originally Posted by The Wolf

It's not an argument, IT'S A FACT. They played a version of softball. The rules were changed to be more baseball-like over the years due to fan dissatisfaction but women have never played regulation baseball. Ever.

That's a fact and all the science fiction wishes in the world can't change it.

I never said that women have played regulation baseball.

As a matter of interest, how different was it?

There have been times in baseball when it took 8 balls for a walk, and OOTP simulates that (to a point). There were times when going from first to third on a single was a SB. Not everyone wants to play modern day MLB. Technically you could probably argue that the World Baseball Classic doesn't play "regulation baseball" because they have pitch limits.

The whole point of OOTP is that you can do what you like. As long as it doesn't take away from the core of the game, which no one is proposing, why is it a problem? Not to mention that girls have played baseball at highschool, and OOTP allows you to create highschool leagues.

The science fiction thing is one thing in relation to a woman playing in the modern day MLB, but what about a dedicated women's league? Assuming it got decent financial support and sensible ownership, why couldn't it work? See the WNBA. Yeah, it's a bit of a laughing stock, but it exists.

[Carplos]

So you'd be ok with us being able to make segregated leagues in OOTP?

Er, um, I agree you with you everywhere else, but plenty of people run their leagues segregated until integration really happened...

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Carplos

Er, um, I agree you with you everywhere else, but plenty of people run their leagues segregated until integration really happened...

True, but I meant in the sense of actually having a setting to the effect of "don't allow any players with the ethnicity of "African" in this league".

On the AAGPBL not playing regulation baseball thing, from what I can tell, it was pretty close to it in the end. And nothing was as radically different as some 19th century MLB rules.

[CONN CHRIS]

For those of you that seem to get angry at the mention of this as an option; why?

There's an option to have a majors level league in Madagascar - I don't use that option either - what possible difference does it make?

[Carplos]

True, but I meant in the sense of actually having a setting to the effect of "don't allow any players with the ethnicity of "African" in this league".

It would easier that having to edit the ethnicities.txt file a bunch as you switch between eras and leagues, so it's possible people would like it as an option.

There's an option to have a majors level league in Madagascar - I don't use that option either - what possible difference does it make?

Adding women would require some programming changes on Markus' part, whereas the nations.txt, etc were probably made by other people so didn't require much on Markus' behalf (other than the re-design he was doing anyway.)

I'm not against women being added as an option, but I can at least see why someone would be against it (though in a less douchetastic way.)

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by Carplos

I'm not against women being added as an option, but I can at least see why someone would be against it (though in a less douchetastic way.)

That's my thought too I suppose. well put.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Carplos

It would easier that having to edit the ethnicities.txt file a bunch as you switch between eras and leagues, so it's possible people would like it as an option.

Yeah, and it would make it easier, but I'm not sure it would be wise on the grounds that other people might see it as implying racism, and you are far more likely to get complaints about that than about sexism.

Originally Posted by Carplos

Adding women would require some programming changes on Markus' part, whereas the nations.txt, etc were probably made by other people so didn't require much on Markus' behalf (other than the re-design he was doing anyway.)

Yeah, that's the thing. It is a reasonable argument, and is why I've always made clear that it's nothing more than a low priority "It would be nice to have" thing. I'm not 100% certain that that is the only argument though.

[Carplos]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Yeah, and it would make it easier, but I'm not sure it would be wise on the grounds that other people might see it as implying racism, and you are far more likely to get complaints about that than about sexism.

Agreed that it is very unlikely to happen. Although if Markus would just let us add lines to the ethnicities.txt, we wouldn't need to worry about such issues anyway.

Yeah, that's the thing. It is a reasonable argument, and is why I've always made clear that it's nothing more than a low priority "It would be nice to have" thing. I'm not 100% certain that that is the only argument though.

Oh, definitely not.

[shawa666]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

It's not an argument, IT'S A FACT. They played a version of softball. The rules were changed to be more baseball-like over the years due to fan dissatisfaction but women have never played regulation baseball. Ever.

That's a fact and all the science fiction wishes in the world can't change it.

Ooooooh, I must be a horrible person, then. I like to play fictional scenarios.

Chillax, wolfie, we're not asking for women to be obligatory in the game, just to be available as an option. And frankly, I don't give a damn about the other games, of how players of these games see this game. If they or you want to play within a restricted confine, it's not my business.

The fact is that OOTP went for customisation and it paid off. This proposition would only be another available option. Like it or leave it.

So, they never played MLB regulation ball. Europeans don't play hockey with the NHL's regulations, but it's still hockey.

Your argument is still irrelevant

[Sweed]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

For those of you that seem to get angry at the mention of this as an option; why?

There's an option to have a majors level league in Madagascar - I don't use that option either - what possible difference does it make?

FWIW I am not angry. If you want to know more in depth why I don't support this feature you can go to the old thread link posted earlier in this thread. I don't care to do all of that typing again. The short version is you can mod the game yourself and make this happen. IMHO any time Markus spends on this feature is time away from something else.

I intended on just staying out of this but the bold above always catches my attention. This argument, whether it is Madagascar or the more used Ghana, is meaningless drivel that really has no merit. All of these "non-baseball" locations were not coded into the game by Markus, they are from the FM country database used for the first SI version of OOTP. I suppose Markus could have wasted time removing all of these countries instead of leaving them in to appease everyone that criticized him for having them in the game. In retrospect he probably should have. It's been 5 or 6 versions since the rewrite and it still gets brought up as a reason for, take your pick.....

1. the game sucks it uses a soccer engine (yeah there really are some that hang onto this argument)
2. Ghana is in so why can't I have "feature X"?
3. I can't have a left handed third-baseman\catcher but I can play baseball in Ghana\Madagascar
4. I can't have ambidextrous pitchers but, yeah you guessed it, I can play baseball in Ghana\Madagascar

etc., etc., etc.

Maybe we can all finally agree that the only thing Ghana or Madagascar amounts to is ethnicity, population, and weather just like all locations in the data base. The only difference between a league in the US, Japan, Mexico, or Ghana is the modifiers used to determine the talent of the league compared to MLB. Ghana and Madagascar are not countries that hours and hours were spent upon creating ratings to play at a realistic level for those particular countries. Time to let it die.

Sorry, pet peeve of mine

[CONN CHRIS]

I still don't get folks being so angry over the mention of options that they feel aren't worthwhile to them. Even if something takes coding time; if enough people want it to make it worth adding to the developers and it's something that I would never in a million years use - why would I care?

Something else that I want might have been included as opposed to something others want. I would love a to have a good in-game HOF balloting system. I couldn't care less about story lines, enhanced or otherwise.

I recognize that story lines (by way of example) are important to people so that's fine with me. But if I decided to advocate for what I want I could:

1) Make a case for including a HOF balloting system (I have)

2) Argue that it is a better use of developer time than option/enhancement 'x'

3) Throw cold water on sugested options that are not 'my' desired options

4) Get downright obnoxious when people make suggestions that I don't like.

Somewhere on that continuum, I think I'd cross the line into sillyville.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

So you'd be ok with us being able to make segregated leagues in OOTP?

You can. People have. They really existed, unlike women's baseball leagues, which never did. Facts don't have to apologize for themselves. If you think that simulating actual history that happened to be racist when viewed from today's perspective is a racist act on your part, well, you might want to think that through. That's political correctness gone wild.

The bottom line: if it ain't baseball, it ain't baseball, and I don't want Markus wasting his time on this kind of nonsense (sorry if it offends anyone, but women in baseball is nonsense) when he can be adding BASEBALL features to the game.

[mayberrb]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

IT'S A FACT. They played a version of softball. … women have never played regulation baseball. Ever.

Dear Mr. Wolf,

Ms. Eri Yoshida pitched in the Arizona Winter League in 2010 and 2011. That league is comprised of former major leaguers, aspiring major leaguers, and free agents. I think we can safely assume they played "regulation baseball."

And Babe Didrikson pitched an exhibition game against major leaguers in 1934 and played briefly for the professional baseball team the House of David. Since Babe Ruth and other major leaguers also played with the House of David, they probably played "regulation baseball."

So much for "never ... ever." The facts have a way of changing.

Sincerely,
The Bat Boy

[Carplos]

How come no one has mentioned the Colorado Silver Bullets? They even had televised games!

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

I still don't get folks being so angry over the mention of options that they feel aren't worthwhile to them.

If you think I'm angry you are quite wrong. The actual emotion involved on my part is disgust.

Including women in the game is ridiculous. Women in baseball never happened. It isn't happening. It never will happen. You might as well include sea lion leagues or flying pig leagues. Someone from Ghana or Madagascar might make the Show, but no woman ever will.

Adding nonsense like this would make OOTP looks less serious and more like a quirky game for the SF fandom crowd when they're not wearing their wookie costumes.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by mayberrb

Dear Mr. Wolf,

Ms. Eri Yoshida pitched in the Arizona Winter League in 2010 and 2011. That league is comprised of former major leaguers, aspiring major leaguers, and free agents. I think we can safely assume they played "regulation baseball."

And Babe Didrikson pitched an exhibition game against major leaguers in 1934 and played briefly for the professional baseball team the House of David. Since Babe Ruth and other major leaguers also played with the House of David, they probably played "regulation baseball."

So much for "never ... ever." The facts have a way of changing.

Sincerely,
The Bat Boy

The Arizona Winter League is not affiliated with the MLB in any way whatsoever, and all you are talking about is publicity stunts. Ever see a woman in A ball? No, you haven't, and neither has or will anyone else.

[Carplos]

*AHEM* Star Wars is FANTASY.

Star Trek is Sci-Fi.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Carplos

*AHEM* Star Wars is FANTASY.

Star Trek is Sci-Fi.

Nonsense. It's science fiction that employs a trope (as detailed in Joseph Campbell's "Hero Of A Thousand Faces") that is also commonly employed in fantasy fiction.

[canadiancreed]

I'd put my vote down for the absent "no opinion/doesnt' matter" category. If folks want to do it, go nuts with editing the name/writeup files. If they're against it, do nothing different then you are now. Simple solutions that avoid pointless drama.

If there's enough of a market for it, it'll be added to the game regardless of what polls and what not suggest (as they reflect as much of the market as the Neilsen ratings do for TV). In the end, money talks, and bull**** will run the marathon.