Are you ok with OOTP11 not having any more patches?

[MizzouRah]

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

One more thought. I always keep in mind that OOTP is really the brainchild of one person who is not in the best of health at all times. He's got two or three other guys who help in certain aspects but he is the person doing the programming gruntwork, from what I can gather. This is not a big operation, and never has been. That affects my attitude about this game. What he has been able to accomplish in improving OOTP over the years leads me to cut him some slack. That's the way I am (right now ).

Sums up my feelings as well.

[kingcharlesxii]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Thanks to apathy, OOTP 12 will, like previous versions, have shiny new features to make people go ooh and ahh and yet will still contain all of the legacy bugs that make the game's statistics invalid and which therefore drive many of us crazy.

Some of us want OOTP to be a truly accurate computer baseball game one day. Clearly this is not a priority for many of you.

Thanks for your support - not. Enjoy the shiny objects.

The new fielding and pitching systems were shiny new features and I'm certainly glad they were included. They're big improvements over the old systems.

The fact of the business is that the game just wouldn't sell enough with a bug fix-only version. You need new features to get people to buy a new version of an annual game. People were complaining about how few new features were in OOTP11 when it was announced.

I hate the bugs as much as anyone but this isn't a utopia where Markus doesn't have to worry about sales. He has the make the decision that maximizes his revenue. New features bring in the bucks. And honestly, a game with only bug fixes would be stagnant very fast.

[Malleus Dei]

Always with the excuses. It's so amusing to me that my wife is expected to fix bugs in her apps - which are all more complicated than OOTP is - immediately upon their discovery, but somehow OOTP gets a free pass on this from 70% of you plus sympathetic excuses.

On second thought, it's not amusing at all. It's appalling. Known, duplicable bugs can and should be fixed. No excuses.

Time for more beer.

[kingcharlesxii]

Not excuses, just realism. Games are a very different market segment than most other programs. Most games have legacy bugs. Heck, even most programs I use have legacy bugs. I wish it was different but that's just the way it works.

Yes, bugs should be fixed. That said I don't want Markus to go out of business because no one buys OOTP 11.5: the bug fix version. I'm sure you remember the outcry over 6.5 which was touted as mainly a bug fix version.

Yes, I'd buy a version of OOTP that was just bug fixes but I know I'm in the minority on this. I bought 6.5 and didn't regret it at all. I'd buy 11.5. I'd pay an extra $10-20 for a dedicated bug squasher to be hired. Most people wouldn't.

[Malleus Dei]

One of the major reasons that 6.5 is remembered as one of the best versions ever is *because* it fixed so many bugs.

And all other software should get its bugs fixed, but game software is somehow special? Not buying it. Code is code.

[robc]

The bottom line is if you think the game is worth the $$$, then buy it. If you don't think it is worth the $$$ then don't buy it.

I don't play with user-made, neutralized stat DBs, but if I did I sure wouldn't buy the next version if it didn't fix what it broke this time.

I probably won't buy the next version unless it takes OOTP substantially closer to simulating real MLB across different eras, modelling the different rules and such. A new in-game graphical engine or online features won't do it for me.

[BusterKing]

Originally Posted by robc

I probably won't buy the next version unless it takes OOTP substantially closer to simulating real MLB across different eras, modelling the different rules and such. A new in-game graphical engine or online features won't do it for me.

LOL

You'll buy it and you know it. So will most old time posters here.

11.5 can be a risky proposition to undertake but since we haven't seen this since 6.5 then it might be time to give it a try since version 11 is the most fun to play of all the versions so why not polish it?

[Cooleyvol]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

One of the major reasons that 6.5 is remembered as one of the best versions ever is *because* it fixed so many bugs.

And all other software should get its bugs fixed, but game software is somehow special? Not buying it. Code is code.

Its also THE major reason that 6.5 is not free today.

[silvam14]

I love you all here and I especially love how not-new this discussion is!

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by silvam14

I love you all here and I especially love how not-new this discussion is!

Oh, just shut it, nancy-boy.

[kingcharlesxii]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

One of the major reasons that 6.5 is remembered as one of the best versions ever is *because* it fixed so many bugs.

In retrospect, sure. At the time, as I'm sure you remember, there was practically a revolt when 6.5 was announced ("I have to pay for bug fixes?!" was by far the most common refrain). I'm not sure how well 6.5 sold at the time vs a regular OOTP version but I'm guessing it was less since it was an expansion and I think only $10 less than a full version. It still sells well mainly because it is the last version on the old engine, which some people are still attached to. Otherwise, if OOTP 7 was on the old engine, I'm not sure it would have sold well at all.

And all other software should get its bugs fixed, but game software is somehow special? Not buying it. Code is code.

Yeah, the world doesn't end if there's a bug in a game. If there's a bug in nuclear missle software that very rarely fires them, that's a big problem. If there's a bug in the Point Of Sale software of a business that very rarely deletes an order that was placed, that's still a big problem. If there's a bug in OOTP that sometimes an RBI isn't counted correctly, it annoys people but isn't a Very Bad Thing. So no, code is not code.

In an ideal world, all bugs would be fixed and I'm sure Markus would love to fix every bug. I can't really fault the guy for choosing the option that keeps food on the table, even though I wish it was different.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by kingcharlesxii

In retrospect, sure. At the time, as I'm sure you remember, there was practically a revolt when 6.5 was announced ("I have to pay for bug fixes?!" was by far the most common refrain). I'm not sure how well 6.5 sold at the time vs a regular OOTP version but I'm guessing it was less since it was an expansion and I think only $10 less than a full version. It still sells well mainly because it is the last version on the old engine, which some people are still attached to. Otherwise, if OOTP 7 was on the old engine, I'm not sure it would have sold well at all.

It is interesting that in retrospect it is remembered so fondly, but that at the time (I wasn't here so I can't speak to it), it was very controversial and divisive. Makes me wonder what would happen if Markus had the cahones to put out a version 11.5, and hope the forum didn't blow up with the wailing and gnashing of teeth. Would it be looked back on in 2015 with the same fondness despite the maelstrom it would produce? Perhaps. Sadly I don't think myself and the other 30% will get a chance to find out, however it is Markus' table and if he thinks it will have more food on it with a version 12 than a version 11.5 more power to him. If he can put out a version 12 and track down and squish as many bugs as possible...Well that would be the best of both worlds wouldn't it? The track record suggests that that's not going to happen though.

[pstrickert]

When Markus puts his mind to it, he can kill a lot of bugs in a short period of time. I could be wrong, but I never saw that kind of single-mindedness this time around (for v. 11, that is). I know the excuses. I just got tired of hearing them.

[Sabermetric Baseball]

Originally Posted by 1998 Yankees

One more thought. I always keep in mind that OOTP is really the brainchild of one person who is not in the best of health at all times. He's got two or three other guys who help in certain aspects but he is the person doing the programming gruntwork, from what I can gather. This is not a big operation, and never has been. That affects my attitude about this game. What he has been able to accomplish in improving OOTP over the years leads me to cut him some slack. That's the way I am (right now ).

OOTP is not exactly freeware. While your points certainly justify appreciation of the personal accomplishments by such a small team, big operation prices justify big operation expectations. There are oftentimes a few sales in the summer, but OOTP's base price is usually around $35-40. That's the same amount you'd pay for the big budget games with tens of millions of dollars in development costs. I can understand bugs sneaking through due to limited testing resources, but an effort should be made to correct out-of-the-box functionality errors that buyers were expecting to work properly.

[Nutlaw]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Does style being chosen over substance surprise me? Yes. Always. That's a trademark of fools, idiots, and children. Optimistically I expect others to do better, to be better and to want better. That's my own brand of foolishness.

I realize that optimism leads to disappointment and that by definition half of the population is of below average intelligence. That doesn't mean that I have to like any of the consequences of that fact or become a pessimist. I'll just continue to hope for better than I have seen so far and continue to be bitterly disappointed. And to drink a lot because of the difference in all things in this life between what could and should be and what is.

Do you honestly feel that this is an effective form of disagreement, sir? Do you believe that insulting people in such a fashion will result in a productive outcome? That blasting them for wishing to see new features in new releases of a game will somehow result in the game becoming more error free?

If you have issues with problems with the game, by all means take it up with the developers. I find it appalling that a select few members of this community refuse to discuss disagreements in a respectful or dignified manner. I am disappointed and embarassed that this sort of blatant hostility is permitted to stand as representative of the community as a whole.

There are many productive ways to contribute to this game and this community and insulting others over disagreements is not one. We are better than this.

[Nutlaw]

I have given more than a small amount of time in recent years to beta testing and Tech Support of OOTP, and I can say with absolute certainty that forum bullying does not help the process of bug fixing even a little bit.

Find a better way.

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by Killebrew

I assume you are working and/or responding on behalf of OOTP, perhaps in a beta tester capacity? If yes, how about trying to update player pictures in the game, regardless of any league specific settings.

Instructions: Go to ...
OOTP --> GAME SETUP --> PLAYER PICTURES tab --> "Update / Generate Player Pictures" option (right side of screen).

Ok done. What was supposed to happen? I used to get an error and the game would close when I did that on my old laptop. I don't have any problem on this one.

What other settings do you have that you believe cause the error?

On my old laptop I also had problems with the game shutting down from time to time when I was going from one day to the next. That problem doesn't happen on my new laptop either. I can honestly say I have had zero problems with errors or shutdowns since I got the new laptop. I definitely tested it when I first got it, doing the things that were causing problems on my old one.

[StyxNCa]

Originally Posted by Sabermetric Baseball

I can vouch for StyxNCa - he is not affiliated with OOTP, just an enthusiastic customer.

I am one of the least enthusiastic and most soft spoken people on the board.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

I am one of the least enthusiastic and most soft spoken people on the board.

Now that I can vouch for.

[Killing Time]

Originally Posted by Nutlaw

I have given more than a small amount of time in recent years to beta testing and Tech Support of OOTP, and I can say with absolute certainty that forum bullying does not help the process of bug fixing even a little bit.

Find a better way.

The only thing that DOES help get anything fixed is what you deliberately mislabel as "forum bullying."