Tired of playing online, so help me in solo....

[mking55]

Originally Posted by DCG12

mking

It would be helpful if you could post how you got all these players i.e. who did you trade for who. I have been working on trading during beta testing and am fast reaching the point where I am burned out because people come on the forum and scream that they fleeced the AI in historical and MLB quickstart games but I have a tough time replicating the trades. It leads me to believe that they have some setting different then I do or they are not being totally honest as to the trade setting being hard or very hard. I am not doubting that you made the trades but to make it better I have to be able to show Markus how it was done and not just somebody stirring the hot button issue. I try all trades on various levels including very hard and with various trade frequencies as well as during different times of the season.

I tried to replicate what you did by simming the 1939 season and then making some trades as the Browns. I managed to get Mell Ott but I had to give up 5 players all 3 stars or better to get him. The game will be subject to these trades unless Markus changes the way trades are evaluated. Right now all players have a value and if you include enough players and or money/draft picks you will eventually tip the scale. I am not saying this is the right way it is just how it works. Maybe HOF players showed have a "no trade" tag although that would piss off people who would complain they can't trade for good players.

I then tried to flip Ott for Williams and the only way Boston would do it was for 5 more players plus Ott including the only two guys on the reserve roster who had potential. Now looking at the players Boston took I would not have made the trade because I know who Williams is and should be. But again I tipped the scale. The down side for St. Louis though is they are running out of players because I moved 11 to end up with just Williams.

As much as you hate house rules my personal feeling is trades in OOTP should never be more than one player off on a side i.e. 2 for 1 or 3 for 2

Always glad to assist. First of all, I didn't scream. I'm just stating an issue. The world doesn't end and my life goes on even if I think the trading module doesn't work as it should.

Starting at the end of your post, yes I agree. House rules make it tougher but I don't feel I should purchase a game and add house rules to it. I want the challenge I believe I'm paying for.

Okay, I wasn't the Browns but the A's (almost as bad). The league started in 1939 with the teams as is. No initial draft but you have the bums you're dealt with to begin.

As I said my trading difficulty level is set to "very hard" and "neutral". Frequency is normal but I have since tried setting it to low. It's as I thought in that it has no effect on trades between the AI and me.

In 1940 I got Mel Ott from the Giants. The trade was:
Mel Ott + George Myatt + Ken O'Dea + Cliff Melton for Zeke Bonura + Billy Jurges + Buck Ross + Bill Lillard + Jim Reninger.

Also in 1940 I received Ted Williams + Bill Baker from the Red Sox for Dizzy Dean (and not the superstar Dizzy Dean) + Dee Miles + Skeeter Newsome.

In 1940 I received Bob Feller for Wally Moses + Billy Sullivan + Bud Thomas + Lynn Nelson + Nels Potter. Then in 1941 I flipped Feller (who wasn't the great Feller) to the White Sox for Luke Appling and Johnny Rigney.

Also in 1941 I flipped Appling (received and traded in the off-season) to the Dodgers along with Hank Edwards + Cotton Pippen + Ernie White for Tommy Heinrich + Benny McCoy + Art Johnson + Max Butcher + Carl Doyle.

In 1941 I received Rudy York + Hank Greenberg + Ernie White + Dizzy Trout for Whitey Kurowski + Frankie Hayes + Bob McNamara + Jim Gleeson + Walt Masters + Sam Page + Babe Young + Harry Feldman + Joe Gantenbein. I gave up a lot of mediocrity to obtain 3 great players and 1 so-so guy.

In 1941 I dealt with the Indians. I received Lou Boudreau + Ken Keltner + Hank Edwards for Jack Wilson + George Myatt + Dom DiMaggio + Oad Swigart.

In 1941 the Cardinals gifted me with Stan Musial + Harry Feldman for Eric Tipton + Phil Cavarretta + Harry Marnie + Les McCrabb + Denny Galehouse + Hills Layne + Bill Beckman.

As you can see I got top quality for poor to middling quality with the odd exception (Phil Cavarretta). There is just no way a team trades a very young, high ratings, Ted Williams or Stan Musial. You should maybe be able to trade Williams for Joe Dimaggio but that's about it.

The ratings in my league are close to what the players were in real life. The only "disappointment" I had was Bob Feller.

Now I know you seem to lead me to believe you play with house rules. That's fine for you. However, for those of us who don't want to have house rules or the trade police, I believe we are entitled to a game where trading difficulty set to "very hard" means just that. A bunch of people can try to justify why it's no good (it's too hard, it's a small company, etc.) but if we don't call them as we see them and try to justify the flaws in the game, then how can we except them to be worked on? I'm not shouting this is a bad game and so on. I respect Markus and company. I've bought every version since V2 and I would have bought Version 1 if I had heard of it.

But there are certain little annoying bugs that reappear every year (screens aren't sticky so if I'm checking my rotation and then leave that screen it's a surprise when I call it up again. Maybe I'll get the whole lineup with their batting averages. This isn't good.)

"Meet Demand" does mean what it says. In the off-season you can "meet demand" on your own player before he goes to free agency and he rejects you sometimes demanding the same amount you just offered him. (I've reported this one on a support ticket).

Trades are the bane of my existence. I obviously work hard on my trades. I don't just go in and grab a bunch of players and voila! I've got a deal. I persist in finding what will work.

The game doesn't know who "Ted Williams" is, is not a valid argument in my opinion. Forget Ted Williams, he has top of the line ratings. The game knows that. And you can program the game to "see the future of Ted Williams" so that you're not giving him away for mediocrity.

I hope my little, long-winded note has been of some assistance.

Martin

[DCG12]

Thanks for the reply mking.

First I didn't mean you were screaming, that was more a general observation of what has been happening on the boards recently.

Second I won't say I don't play with house rules because I do in the sense that I stay away from multiple player deal where one team is giving up several to get the few. This is an area that is weak because of the way player "value" is used in trades. Everybody has a value even if that value is "1" . Put enough 1 value players in a trade and you can get that "10" value player. Your trade for Musial falls in this catagory, you traded 7 for 2. Until Markus changes the trade code you will always be able to find the tipping point. Not saying it is right,just that it is this way.

Third it does appear that trading is much more of a problem in "real" leagues because of things that I stated previously, in that the human has a more sophisticated sense of the players value than the AI. You almost never see posts on the forum about fictional trading because IMO people don't go out of their way to try and pry star fictional players away from a team the way it seems to happen in "real" leagues. Also in fictional leagues there can be a greater chance of prospects flaming out than in a historical league. For example picking up Williams in his 2nd season is almost a guarenteed thing but not so much in a fictional league with Joe "Rookie of the Year" Smith.

My only goal is to try and make trading better without people feeling that no trade ever works.

[DCG12]

dola

Thinking some more about this maybe a cap should be put on guys like Williams and Musial where the value of these players in a trade has to be matched by no more than say 2 players on the other side. If it takes more than 2 players to equal Williams value for example than the AI would refuse. That would prevent the 6 for 1 deals that steal star players.

Just a thought.

[mking55]

Originally Posted by DCG12

dola

Thinking some more about this maybe a cap should be put on guys like Williams and Musial where the value of these players in a trade has to be matched by no more than say 2 players on the other side. If it takes more than 2 players to equal Williams value for example than the AI would refuse. That would prevent the 6 for 1 deals that steal star players.

Just a thought.

Personally, now that you mention trades are evaluated on values, the problem is with the values assigned.

If you look at a player's whole career (historical of course) and then factor in his age, you would get more valid values. For example, HOF is worth 5 pts., MVP gets you 3 points, All-Star team gets you 2 points, 3000 hits gets you 4 pts, 2500 hits get you 3 points, 600 homers get you 4, 500 get you 3, 400 gets you 2, 300 wins gets you 4, 250 gets you 3, 200 gets you 2 and so on and so on.

On top of that you scale back for age. If the player is 39, he's not worth the point value I've just given him.

If a player is breathing he gets 1 point. So leaving out the other things you could assign points for (batting average, WS titles, whatever) Ted gets approx. 48 points. So I would need to give up 49 breathing nobodies to get him. It can't be done and Ted is safe unless you are throwing Joe D. or Stan the Man into the deal.

Problem solved. Game on!

[DCG12]

Just to be clear I am talking very generally about player value based on what I have picked up from various threads here and in beta. Now player ratings factor into that value as I believe age does but only Markus knows the whole formula. The bottom line doesn't change though, offer enough players and you end up reaching that threshold.

[DCG12]

mking, one other question, I know you from the Matrix/Puresim board and wonder how you deal with the trading in that game because I don't believe it is as strong as OOTP. Yet I don't remember you being too vocal about it. Or else I just missed it. Reading K G Erwins dynasty reports the first thing he always did was bring Williams and Dimaggio to Brooklyn for a bunch of stiffs.

[mking55]

Originally Posted by DCG12

mking, one other question, I know you from the Matrix/Puresim board and wonder how you deal with the trading in that game because I don't believe it is as strong as OOTP. Yet I don't remember you being too vocal about it. Or else I just missed it. Reading K G Erwins dynasty reports the first thing he always did was bring Williams and Dimaggio to Brooklyn for a bunch of stiffs.

When is the last time you played? Is it pre V2.50? If so, I'd update. I hope the demo is for 2.50 or higher.

Yes, it was easy to ripoff the trading engine in PureSim. I didn't complain a lot about it (just as I'm not repeating myself and complaining in every thread here). But it was lousy just like OOTP (no offence intended). However, I admit I cut them a little more slack over there for a few reasons. One is that it's not Shaun's livelihood, but only a part-tiime obsession. The other is the general maturity on the boards so if you post something you're not happy with or think can be improved, you don't have a bunch of people jumping down your throat implying that you're an idiot. Respect for others is evident in 98% of the posts and is a model for any board I've visited. The final reason is the response you get over there from someone who works alone (okay, one helper) and has a full-time job is amazing. The responses are quick. If he's going to be out of touch he let's everyone know. And he puts out patches right away when there is a game stopping problem for someone or he comes out with tons of free upgrades. Sometimes it's just silly. New features released every week when I've paid for the game? Who has ever heard of such a thing?

However, I digress. The trading engine now is worthy of even me. I can't rip it off anymore. I have to give up value to get value and sometimes I can offer more value (I'd take the trade) but the AI tells me to get lost. I think it's better to err on the side of a tougher AI than it is to err on the side of the human.

This company (OOTP) is small and is basically a one or two man show. Let's not forget Andreas. But it's a full time job so that means they have to deliver more than the part time developer. And they come out with a version every year and say that it's the latest and greatest. Yes, basically it gets better each year. But the recurring bugs are annoying. And the trading engine is so important to the historical simmer who wants to build his empire. The forces of evil (also known as the AI) should be doing all in it's power to stop this.

Get the base engine working well in all areas and then do the new features, skins, widgets, whatever. Prioritize. Kill the bugs from 5 years ago. Make what you currently have run as close to flawlessly as possible. (Flawless is impossible).

I admit I except more from the full-time guys who promise how good their game is than I do from the part-tiime developer who doesn't promise anything but believes in and supports their product to the hilt.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by mking55

Personally, now that you mention trades are evaluated on values, the problem is with the values assigned.

If you look at a player's whole career (historical of course) and then factor in his age, you would get more valid values. For example, HOF is worth 5 pts., MVP gets you 3 points, All-Star team gets you 2 points, 3000 hits gets you 4 pts, 2500 hits get you 3 points, 600 homers get you 4, 500 get you 3, 400 gets you 2, 300 wins gets you 4, 250 gets you 3, 200 gets you 2 and so on and so on.

On top of that you scale back for age. If the player is 39, he's not worth the point value I've just given him.

If a player is breathing he gets 1 point. So leaving out the other things you could assign points for (batting average, WS titles, whatever) Ted gets approx. 48 points. So I would need to give up 49 breathing nobodies to get him. It can't be done and Ted is safe unless you are throwing Joe D. or Stan the Man into the deal.

Problem solved. Game on!

I'm with you somewhat except for these subjective standards. HoF for example: Rube Marquard, Jim Bottomley, Catfish Hunter, Jesse Haines, and Rabbit Maranville among others get the bonus points while more deserving guys like Bert Blyleven, Bill Dahlen, Lou Whitaker, Bobby Grich and Rick Reuschel among others do not. The same thing with end of season awards and All-Star games. Let's face it all three of these areas are more of a popularity contest than a true measure of a player's skill or merit. The BBWAA has already pooped up RL baseball enough. I don't want them pooping up my game as well.

[robc]

I don't think awards should be used for trade value. If the AI uses a player's potential correctly to evaluate the future value of a player that is all you need (along with their current ability).

I haven't studied how the AI does when scouting isn't used, but I would guess it fares much better. Also, playing historical leagues with recalc on foobars the use of potential since it is only based on the recalc period. I think this would really hamper the AI.

Of course getting the AI to handle all situations in a reasonable way is a very challenging endeavor.

I was against it in Puresim when it started using historical awards to make trading more difficult. It just shifted the difficulty. I was able to get some pretty favorable trades by going after solid (not hall of fame guys) since they weren't awarded any of those bonus points.

[mking55]

Originally Posted by actionjackson

I'm with you somewhat except for these subjective standards. HoF for example: Rube Marquard, Jim Bottomley, Catfish Hunter, Jesse Haines, and Rabbit Maranville among others get the bonus points while more deserving guys like Bert Blyleven, Bill Dahlen, Lou Whitaker, Bobby Grich and Rick Reuschel among others do not. The same thing with end of season awards and All-Star games. Let's face it all three of these areas are more of a popularity contest than a true measure of a player's skill or merit. The BBWAA has already pooped up RL baseball enough. I don't want them pooping up my game as well.

Okay, lower the HOF values. I'm just throwing food for thought out there. Or if you can, HOF by vote gets you 5 points, HOF by Veteran's Committee gets you bupkis. Or kill the HOF. If they won't take Tom Cheek, then to hell with them. And who needs a HOF without Otto Velez? Not me!

Rob, you don't like point values for awards, that's fine. To hell with the awards. Let's not reward Pete Vuckovich for his Cy Young but I would like him to get some bonus points for his save in the 1st Blue Jay game ever.

All I'm saying here is that there is a way to do this to get a reasonable trading engine that can't be picked apart by vultures like me. As I said, I work hard on my trades because it's the best part of the game. If I was a GM in real life and I was through wetting my pants with excitement, they'd forget about Frankie "Trader" Lane and the 8 people who showed up at his funeral. I'd only have 2, maybe 3 at mine. I'd be the Ty Cobb of GM's.

What's there now isn't good enough. I think with a bit of brain power and effort, it can be made much better. I know it's difficult, but most good things are difficult to achieve.

[actionjackson]

Originally Posted by mking55

...Let's not reward Pete Vuckovich for his Cy Young

I just threw up in my mouth. Thanks for reminding me of one of the most idiotic, clueless, daft, bizarre and downright insane selections of my lifetime. Vuckovich's history with the Jays notwithstanding and all apologies to his family, but...C'mon!

[progen]

I scan posts sometimes so forgive me if missed an important detail.
Is your test confined to AI vs. AI trades? It sounds like it. You need to test you (a human being I believe) trading against the AI. The AI has a rule, if a trade is a bonehead makes no sense trade with another AI team, then do it and do it now.

I myself have never got into looking at AI vs AI trades. Many of the few I've seen are just plain stupid. The test is how you perform against the AI.

The Brownies in my league have the 1st pick every year. It isn't by congressional decree but rather they have this annoying habit of trading their first pick to me to get some mediocre to good players (and some bums) who may improve their season record by 2 games. At least the real Brownies had an excuse. No draft and no money.

The trick, at least to me and that I can't find, is to stop me from constantly getting 90% of the players I want. I still haven't gotten Joe Dimaggio but I don't want him anymore. My outfield is Musial, Williams, and Pete Reiser which can make you wet your pants. And now I've traded the Brownies for their first pick, Ralph Kiner. Where do I put him? In the broadcast booth?

Do your testing (I suggest) with you going up against the AI.

The other thing I still see is that a team will trade for Player X and then not resign him so he's a free agent. Why? They're not going to win the Pennant with that trade, so if they can't or won't (mostly won't) resign him, why bother acquiring him?

Yea, my goal with the tests were to just get the AI to the point where it was doing nearly all "make sense" trades between the AI teams. With that goal in mind, I am satisfied at this point with "test 3". And yes, now comes the "real test" which will be me looking to move some of my players before the deadline, to make room next season for some decent AAA talent that I want to bring up. Remember, I'm the Pirates so I don't have a whole lot to work with. I have Tabata and Sanchez in AAA that should be ready for Sept call ups, and more than likely starters next year. Being a huge Phillies fan, I decided to pass on them, as I want to see how I fare with the "lowly Pirates". I won't make many moves, for the sake of testing the AI, but I will let you know how my season(s) progress. I am enjoying breaking down the team and the farm system, and soon, getting ready for the draft.

[robc]

Originally Posted by mking55

What's there now isn't good enough. I think with a bit of brain power and effort, it can be made much better. I know it's difficult, but most good things are difficult to achieve.

Agreed.

I haven't tried any trades with OOTP 11 yet. I think with more improvements the AI can be made more competitive reguarding trades. The week points need to be analyzed and shored up. I think the most common one is multiple player trades. There needs to be diminishing returns when adding players worse then the one being acquired.

My guess is that it can also take into better consideration its position in its league and if it should be rebuilding or going for the playoffs. This is pure speculation on my part.

I think if you find scenarios that are clearly lacking, post them in the suggestion forum so they have a better chance for being addressed. Markus can be very helpful, but with the quantity of posts my guess he only looks at a fraction of them. You don't get the instant feedback that we got on the Puresim forums (although when I've poked my head over there Shaun has been pretty quite for a while now).