Can I set up a League like a soccer league?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Properly simulating actual American baseball has to have a far higher priority than simulating nonsensical whimsies.

I believe I covered that earlier with a reference to prioritizing.

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

And they are dead wrong. Better MLB simulation = more sales.

Two thoughts:

1) Where's the evidence for your claim? Or is it just your unproven assertion?

2) "Better MLB simulation"— do you mean present MLB or past MLB? Or both? What areas do you consider a part of "MLB simulation"? Does interaction with the minor leagues fall under the category? On-field statistics only? Financials? Transaction rules? All of these?

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

There are a passionate few of you here that have lobbied hard to get this game shifted toward whimsy instead of real baseball. It has hurt the game badly.

Evidence for this claim?

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Look at the popularity of the MLB-focused Baseball Mogul, which as a simulation is only a small fraction of what OOTP is. Not being focused on real baseball has hurt OOTP, and the more you push for whimsy, the less mainstream the game becomes.

Correlation is not causation. Also, evidence for your claim?

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Left to yourself you guys would steer the game to be a totally customizable whimsyball game that had absolutely zero mainstream appeal.

How do you know what constitutes mainstream appeal? How did you arrive at that conclusion and by what criteria?

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

And the resulting lack of sales would kill the game for good.

Evidence? Or are you making the mistake of assuming that your opinion constitutes evidence?

[DrArbiter]

Originally Posted by Sdpm100

I'm not quite sure how a few low level European leagues make it the majority.

By counting. A majority of professional baseball leagues use some form of promotion and relegation, period.

I don't know of any leagues in the traditional baseball world that use promotion/relegation.

I expect there are a lot of Dutch and Italians, among others, would take offense at not being considered part of the "traditional" baseball world, when they've had professional leagues for 60+ years.

[DrArbiter]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

(Strictly speaking, MLB allows tie games too. It's just that in their case any game ending in a tie is replayed in full at a later date and the tie game is not listed as part of the team's record. However, all player statistics in that tie game still count towards the season totals.)

After the rule changes two years ago, a tie game in MLB is essentially impossible, and any game that ends in a tie will not be replayed. The only way for a game to end in a tie is for it to be suspended, for there to be no opportunity for the teams to resume the game, and for the season to end with the game having no potential impact on determining playoff seedings.

[Bobbuttons]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Now we're back to the Ghana leagues/women leagues/hobbit leagues argument.

Relegation is not part of real baseball, just like Ghana, women and hobbits aren't. And there are features of real baseball that OOTP does not address yet. Properly simulating actual American baseball has to have a far higher priority than simulating nonsensical whimsies.

Now we're back to this. Anything that doesn't fit into MD's pathetically narrow view of "real baseball" shouldn't be included, because MD is the be all and end all of sports simulations. The fact that you can play OOTP either a full historical league or current MLB setup that fancies your realism interest, but also as a completely fictional setup should clue MD into the fact that fictional means just that...FICTIONAL. That there happens to be a very large number of online leagues around here that use fictional settings instead of the current MLB setup should tell you that a lot of people don't mind setting up their own little personal version of baseball that they can create any way they like.

I, for instance, had a great league that I had in an older version where the Great Depression forced the bankruptcy of MLB and a splintered league broke off a couple of years after. But since that is not how "real" baseball went, MD would want that bit of customization ripped from the game.

[endgame]

I don't think MD has advocated ripping anything out of the game, only maintaining strict control over the type and genre of what is added, i.e. a first things first philosophy that centers itself around replicating the actual game of baseball with regard to its rules and transactions; ultimately, as he's conveyed his confidence in Markus, the implementation of workable and logical strategies that coincide with 'good' baseball management. Once all those elements have been improved to an approximation of reality, then it'd be time to devote coding and creativity to a scope outside reality.

I certainly don't mean to speak for MD, he's more than capable of doing that himself, but I also don't think it's accurate to paint this philosophical difference with a broad brush of Us vs Them, specifically Him vs Those Who Don't Think Like Him. It's not personal. It's a difference of opinion on how much focus core elements are due, and how many strides can still be made toward improving them.

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by JustinM

This is ignoring the plain fact that it's not a "soccer league feature" any more than wins and losses are.

Justin, Andymac was on your side. I think you quoted the wrong guy.

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Now we're back to the Ghana leagues/women leagues/hobbit leagues argument.

Relegation is not part of real baseball, just like Ghana, women and hobbits aren't. And there are features of real baseball that OOTP does not address yet. Properly simulating actual American baseball has to have a far higher priority than simulating nonsensical whimsies.

Not arguing with your priorities here (or LGO's), but I would like to point out that:
*****
WASHINGTON—Baseball will be adding a women's component to its bid to get reinstated for the 2016 Olympics, after failing to unite with women's softball.

The president of the International Baseball Federation, Harvey Schiller, told The Associated Press the change will be made in the next few days.

"The main reason is the growth of the game, and, obviously, we have a constituency which makes up women's baseball, and they're asking, 'What about us?'" Schiller said in a telephone interview Monday. "We want the world to know that we have women's baseball."

The move comes a few weeks after women's softball rejected baseball's proposal for a joint baseball-softball bid. The two sports are among seven competing for two openings for new sports at the 2016 Olympics; the International Olympic Committee will decide in October.

Schiller estimated that between 300,000 and 500,000 women and girls play baseball worldwide, a figure which includes Little League and T-ball.

Jim Glennie, president of the American Women's Baseball Federation, called news of the expanded bid "wonderful." Glennie recruits women for the U.S. national team, which competes in the Women's World Cup of Baseball.

Glennie, an assistant attorney general in Michigan, said he didn't know of any high schools in the U.S. that offer women's baseball, and that girls who want to play baseball beyond Little League face an uphill battle. Some girls have been able to land roster spots on boy's high school baseball teams, but those are rare, he said.

"It's been that way -- baseball for the boys, softball for the girls," said Glennie, who got involved in women's baseball in 1992, when his daughter wanted to play the sport.

The president of the International Softball Federation, Don Porter, said Monday he was surprised by baseball's move.

"I didn't think many women were playing baseball," said Porter, whose group has given the IOC the option of adding men's softball to the sport. "That's fine, if they want to involve females. All sports should do that."

The IOC voted to drop baseball and softball in 2005, and softball officials have said their sport was hurt by baseball's doping scandals. Since softball was added to the Olympics in 1996, the U.S. won three straight golds before losing to Japan in Beijing.

Lilly Jacobson, who played for the Vassar men's baseball team last year and played twice for the women's U.S. national baseball team, said coaches and parents push girls into softball.

"By creating a future, and showing there is support for women's baseball, this is a fantastic development," she said of the Olympic effort.

Jacobson grew up in Reno, Nev., where she pitched and played outfield for her high school team. At Vassar, she was a reserve outfielder and pinch-hitter.

"I hope this creates more support for women's baseball in the United States because other countries are far ahead of us in their support for women's baseball," she said.

Last month, Japan's first female professional player, 17-year-old Eri Yoshida, made her debut, striking out one and walking one in relief in the newly formed Kansai Independent League, which is akin to farm team ball. Yoshida models herself on Boston Red Sox knuckleballer Tim Wakefield.

Jacobson's mother, Jennifer Ring, touches on Jacobson's experiences in her new book, "Stolen Bases: Why American Girls Don't Play Baseball." Ring, a political science professor at the University of Nevada-Reno, said many American women played baseball at the college and semipro level in the 19th century. But around 1900, men started pushing women into softball, in part because of the professionalization of baseball, she said.

"Baseball's the national game, and girls should have a choice," Ring said. "There's something very strange about the national pastime excluding half the nation."

Women's baseball got a quick moment in popular culture with the 1992 movie, "A League of Their own," starring Rosie O'Donnell, Madonna and Tom Hanks. The film told the story of the All-American Girls Professional Baseball League, which was started by Chicago Cubs owner Philip Wrigley in 1943 as a way to keep interest in baseball thriving during World War II. But the league folded in 1954.

------

On the Net:

American Women's Baseball Federation: http://www.awbf.org/

[dave1927p]

If someone wants a promotion/relegation as an optional playoff system, who the hell are any of us to say he cannot have that. What makes OOTP great is the customization. You play the game you want to. It doesn't matter if the MLB does something one way, you are able customize your league to your liking. That is the main reason i love ootp. So when someone says "a promotion/relegation is not baseball" it doesn't at all make sense as an arguement for OOTP; maybe for Baseball Mogul, but not for OOTP.

[Sdpm100]

Originally Posted by DrArbiter

By counting. A majority of professional baseball leagues use some form of promotion and relegation, period.

Don't think so somehow. There are what 25 minor and independent leagues in the USA alone that don't have it. And that's without including leagues in Japan and Korea and Venezuela and Puerto Rico and so on.

Originally Posted by DrArbiter

I expect there are a lot of Dutch and Italians, among others, would take offense at not being considered part of the "traditional" baseball world, when they've had professional leagues for 60+ years.

Great Britain won the first Baseball World Cup but that doesn't make us a part of the traditional baseball world. You should be thankful I'm not like most people who regard baseball as only played in the USA.

[Sdpm100]

Originally Posted by Curtis

Not arguing with your priorities here (or LGO's), but I would like to point out that:
*****
WASHINGTON—Baseball will be adding a women's component to its bid to get reinstated for the 2016 Olympics, after failing to unite with women's softball.

As long as you don't mind some hard-coded masculine terms you can do women's leagues now with a name file.
And Ghanaian leagues for that matter. I'm not sure about hobbit leagues though. That's a bit less easily done.

[Carlton_Willey]

I play many of the top sports sims out there: OOTP, BM (I like them both depending on my mood) FOF and FM. All of them get things right, all of them have problems.

They all have issues with getting the minutia of league rules and structures exactly right. FOF's problem is at one end of the scale: no customization whatsoever.

I'm not so sure I buy the 'get the details of MLB exactly right' argument. FM currently is unplayable -- if you want a longer than two years or so career at a top team in Europe-- because the top leagues in Spain and Italy are broken due to the attempt to replicate the minutia of player contracts in those leagues.

I remember times when OOTP has broken down due to the rule 5 draft, or waivers or other such things that don't add all that much to the fun factor for me.

Yes, you can turn these off in OOTP--if you know where to look. That's a huge advantage over FM where you can't.

Still, games breaking down over small items like AI teams and waivers or Italian teams and co-owned players are larger issues than getting these details right.

When adding detail breaks things, drop the details.

[DrArbiter]

Originally Posted by Sdpm100

Don't think so somehow. There are what 25 minor and independent leagues in the USA alone that don't have it.

I count 7 (since I don't think the United League will play, and I have reasons to doubt the Continental League will either). Major League Baseball (tm) and Minor League Baseball (tm) are one league.

[Afino]

I'm currently in the process of setting up a custom world (well, that was already done), name set (to get real-life NHL names in my game), team names, and template for the "world of hockey" franchise I'm going to start in OOTP 10.

Are people going to tell me I shouldn't be doing this? That I shouldn't have someone named Alex Ovechkin in a baseball universe because not many Russians play baseball? They may. Is it going to stop me? Absolutely not.

It's all about customizing the settings and the database that is currently available. All I need is already there, I just have to adjust the database to do so. And if I want to do a more "traditional" baseball world, I can still do that too.

I don't see why some get so upset when they want women's leagues, Ghana leagues, or hobbit leagues. Womens' leagues I can see the debate over because of the use of "he" and "him" that is hard-coded into the game PBP and news. But other than that, EVERYTHING ELSE IS ALREADY CUSTOMIZABLE as far as names and locations. I know that there's online leagues for LOTR and even WoW. If that's the way they want to play, I don't see why some have to get all over them for that.

It's your game, play it your way.

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by treedom

I don't want to play soccer. I want to play baseball with promotion/regulation.

More ability to customize = more fun, as far as I'm concerned.

[tirk44]

I have posted on promotion/relegation and would love a way to have it easier. The problem is we'd all probably have a different idea of how to implement it properly. I remember when playoffs were added a number of versions back, which was great, except it didn't give you an opportunity to really customize, i.e. byes, odd # of teams, seeding problems that still exist, etc. I agree with MD that when some of these new setup customization options come into the game they are not done perfectly, and people complain. Meanwhile some ongoing issues with game play exist and he sees that use of resources as taking away from the core of the game. Therefore I'll probably continue to do it the bootleg way I do it today.

As both a heavy soccer and baseball fan, I personally would love promotion/relegation in the game for both international league real-ness and for the strategy of dealing with that as a GM. If my team is beset by injuries and 5 games below "safety from relegation" at the trade deadline, do I sacrifice some of the future to stay in the bigger league, with higher revenue streams? Or do I bite the bullet with the team I have and hope things get better? Today if I'm in last place, the decisions are easy. Relegation adds a whole new level to the aspect of management that many people would come to embrace, once they got past the whole soccer bit.

[KuwabaraTheMan]

This seems like a perfectly good idea to me. While I wouldn't classify it as a priority, it has been pointed out in this thread that several real world baseball leagues use this format. As such, it would be necessary if anyone ever wanted to create a truly accurate and comprehensive baseball world (something we're probably still at least a few years away from being able to realistically realize, but every little step counts).

Besides, one of the greatest features of OOTP is how every player can craft their own experience.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by endgame

I don't think MD has advocated ripping anything out of the game, only maintaining strict control over the type and genre of what is added, i.e. a first things first philosophy that centers itself around replicating the actual game of baseball with regard to its rules and transactions; ultimately, as he's conveyed his confidence in Markus, the implementation of workable and logical strategies that coincide with 'good' baseball management. Once all those elements have been improved to an approximation of reality, then it'd be time to devote coding and creativity to a scope outside reality.

It's nice to see someone here can read and understand the written word. Once OOTP finally simulates real baseball accurately, THEN go off with your silly alternate worlds science fiction baseball nonsense.

LGO, how long will it take before you figure out that I don't care a bit what you think and will not play your games? Give it up, junior.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by dave1927p

What makes OOTP great is the customization.

Foolishness. What makes OOTP good is the BASEBALL, and the game is only as good as the baseball model is.

Did you know that MLB 09 The Show has a better MLB model in it than our beloved hardcore simulation does? That's how far behind the curve OOTP is on reality: console game have it beaten.

Accurate simulation first. Silliness last.

[Bobbuttons]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Foolishness. What makes OOTP good is the BASEBALL, and the game is only as good as the baseball model is.

Did you know that MLB 09 The Show has a better MLB model in it than our beloved hardcore simulation does? That's how far behind the curve OOTP is on reality: console game have it beaten.

Accurate simulation first. Silliness last.

That's an asanine comparison. There's really no customization at all available for MLB 09: The Show. Which makes it perfect for you. But this game isn't just for you (and I realize that I am only talking to everybody else here and not MD, because he's had me on ignore for years, foolishly at that). It's quite the jackass that decides that only what he thinks of a game matters and that everybody else's opinion means nothing. At least for most of us, we agree that the general model of the game can be improved, and we are all for that. But if extra customization options can also make the cut, only a completely selfish and unreasonable individual would be against that. It's called making as many happy as possible, and not just appeasing MD.

[Malleus Dei]

I'm sure that BobButtons has once again tried to make this issue personal. I put him on ignore years ago because he has this stupid one-trick-pony BS propaganda schtick of trying to cast everything as MD vs. the world.

That is not the case. The case here is reality vs. silliness.

There are two paths for OOTP to take, real baseball and silly season nonsense (leagues in Ghana, women's leagues, hobbit leagues, etc.). OOTP has focused on the silly season far too much of late and not on reality. People who want real baseball - which is the great majority of baseball game buyers - are now happily buying other products, and with justification. People are buying Baseball Mogul instead of OOTP because of this. People are buying console games because of this. If you had told me during the early OOTP days that a console game would simulate the MLB better than OOTP I would have laughed. Now the console gamers are laughing at OOTP.

OOTP is WAY behind on baseball reality. It can choose to focus on real baseball and succeed, or it can choose to listen to the unrepresentative silly season types and become nothing but a fully-customizable niche program with only a few customers and fail. In the long run, it's that simple.

[treedom]

If it's wrong to like silly-season baseball, then I don't want to be right.