Now I'm jealous of FM09...

[Matter2003]

Originally Posted by Antonin

I bought CM 01/02, FM05, FM06, FM07 and FM08. I love soccer almost as much as I do baseball, but FM has always been a very flawed product and I won't be buying FM09.

The game is not really customizable. The versions I have come with an editor, but it is outside the game and in some cases (FM06) does not even work without a patch.

Every version of FM/WSM generates the same firestorm of complaints on the SI forum:

- Success in the game relies too much on match tactics and not enough on player quality. That's "realistic"? I don't think so.

- Only people with no life have the kind of time it takes to study 6,000 word tactical "bibles" on the SI forum, develop the tactics described in those bibles and then tweak them during match after match after match.

- More often than not, either those tactics you have spent a billion hours studying and implementing don't work or don't resemble real soccer at all.

- Much-ballyhooed features such as board confidence don't work the way they are supposed to, meaning you get sacked without understanding why and in situations where a real-life gaffer would never get sacked.

- After a while your players begin playing like blind, uncoordinated idiots while, suddenly, every team you play against becomes a team of supermen. Again, not "realistic" at all.

FM/WSM can be fun in small doses, but unless you play one of the top teams, it quickly becomes an exercise in frustration. For people trying to learn how to become better at the game, the SI forum is the last place to go for help, because your questions will more than likely be met by a firestorm of insults and ridicule. That has been my experience, and I have been a member of that forum since late 2001.

Since the makers of the game are unwilling to implement a "can't get fired" option (even asking for such an option on their forum will get you flamed), your only choice is to muddle through and keep getting fired, watching all your work in building up a team go to waste. That's fun? Not to me it isn't.

Year after year, people ask SI to add more leagues, especially African leagues, but they are just not interested--even though there is a team of people diligently doing African research.

If the game would include even one other African league aside from South Africa, or if it had a "can't get fired" option so that I could manage the team I support and have time to develop it the way I want, or if it had a customization feature that allowed the modder community to create their own leagues--fictional or real--I would gladly buy every new version of FM.

If somebody developed a soccer version of OOTP baseball--even one with only an OOTP4 level of sophistication--it would run a very close second to OOTP as my ultimate all-time computer game.

But with FM09, SI's priority was to create a 3D match engine (!!?!). So, I'll keep my money in my pocket.

I have to say FM09 is a major step forward to me over their previous games. The interaction that you undergo with the various media outlets, press conferences, players, the board, etc is just phenomenal. There are so many leagues in this game, I am not really sure how much customization is needed. I mean, the number of default leagues in FM09 is AT LEAST 5 times more than in OOTP, then you need to add national teams, international competitions and cups, etc and you have an unfathomable number of leagues, competitions, cups, etc. I disagree about starting with a major team. One of the most fun things for me is to start in the lowest divisions and work my way up. Sure there are times you get fired, but how realistic is it if you don't? I am pretty sure no coaches in any sport have contracts where they can't be fired. Soccer is especially volatile in regards to coaching, with coaches getting fired even when they do well if they lose the wrong game or the wrong competition. If anything, coaches don't get fired enough.

As far as becoming better at the game, it helps if you have a fundemental knowledge of the game, and understand the concepts. I am sure there are plenty of ways to cheat against the computer with crazy formations, but I don't implement any of those. I usually implement a formation that plays to the strengths of my team and/or hides my weaknesses. It also depends on he personnel available as to what formation I use. For instance, if I have great strikers but not so good midfielders, I would utilize a 4-3-3 formation. However, if I have better midfielders than strikers, I would look to use a 4-4-2. If my defenders are particularly strong, I might look at using a 5-3-2 or might look to use a 4-4-2 witha defensive midfielder. If certain players are unavailable for matches, I may change my formation based on who is available and how bad the dropoff is...Tactics wise again, you look to use your strengths and minimize your weaknesses.

To me the game is a lot of fun, even more than OOTP because of how you can get promoted/relegated, win various cups, etc...

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Matter2003

The whole press conference, request things from the board, player interaction system is really cool. So is the fact that players can become unhappy by things the manager says during team talks, in the press, etc and it takes things to a whole new level. Then having to deal with a disgruntled player, who you put on the transfer list and tell him he is no longer needed by the team, when he skips practice takes the cake...

Things of that sort would likely be good stuff for fictional leagues in OOTP, but probably isn't as useful or even desired for historical leagues. (Of course, the fictional-historical dichotomy in the game and its implications have been discussed before.)

[John C]

I understand it wouldn't be good for historical leagues. But, as with nearly every other option here, I would expect that this would be togglable.

[ELDoro]

Originally Posted by jaxmagicman

I wouldn't, since it matters zip in real life.

Leadership means zip in real life? Do you mean there is no way to gauge it statistically?

[Tullius]

There are so many leagues in this game, I am not really sure how much customization is needed.

Then you do not understand what does it mean to run a fictional league. Even 1000 "standart" leagues can not replace the experience of your own ficitonal league.

The real problem i see with deeper relationsship is that such a model is so complex i have some doubts that it could be realistic in a PC game.

FM is a game in today`s world but OOTP had to cover more than 130 years. You need a complete degree in media history to attempt to create a realistic model. The next problem is that in Europe sports coverage has not the standart like in the USA and is often very different. The standart in soccer is low and that`s why it is much easier to make such a model for a soccer game.

[f.montoya]

Originally Posted by Afino

I'd prefer things like "leader ability" actually matter in the game first.

To date - I can't tell if it does.

Some data for you: http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...eadership.html

[CMH]

Originally Posted by StyxNCa

Sure. If you like sitting around for hours to see a 0-0 score (yawn). Doesn't seem soccer takes a lot of talent. Just stamina. You have that HUGE goal and no one can get the small ball in there, and these are the best players we're talking about. Seems like ineptitude is the name of the game.

That's a pretty ignorant thing to say especially being a fan of baseball.

[CMH]

Originally Posted by John C

I understand it wouldn't be good for historical leagues. But, as with nearly every other option here, I would expect that this would be togglable.

Agreed.

Options are everyone's best friend. It gives people the dry game they want and helps add features that others want.

I also long for a relationship model in OOTP similar to FM's. Some changes will need to be made to player morale and the negotiation system, but if that can be done, I'd love to have it.

[Matter2003]

Originally Posted by Tullius

The next problem is that in Europe sports coverage has not the standart like in the USA and is often very different. The standart in soccer is low and that`s why it is much easier to make such a model for a soccer game.

Yes I totally agree with you there. There is no such thing as open locker rooms at most soccer clubs. Players are not made available for media before or after games, when the locker rooms are closed to everyone except coaches and players. There is only a "mixed area" where players can stop and talk to the media if they choose to.

However, that being said, obviously the passion is there for the media to find out as much as possible and IMHO it leads to much more speculation by the media in Europe than there is in the US since the majority of the time you aren't able to get the answers to your questions...

[Dargone]

Originally Posted by YankeePride

That's a pretty ignorant thing to say especially being a fan of baseball.

Indeed, I enjoy both sports and have defended baseball so many times from people that say the same thing about baseball. It is interesting to me that a baseball fan would say that?

Anyway, I really enjoy FM and, for me, it is the best sim on the market. I enjoy OOTP as well but would love to see more depth in OOTP. I love the fact that in FM you really do get "sucked" in and feel like you are managing real people instead of looking at a glorified spreadsheet. Bring on the press conferences, player interactions, etc and certainly make it an option for those that don't like that sort of thing. Thanks for reading...

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by bababui

I dont have a clue what you are talking about. Soccer is a 90 minute game that is over in about 110 minutes. Little effort to watch and as little time wasted as possible. There are no commercials during the game and no moronic network hype during the game.

Little effort to watch? Maybe you watch differently than I do. Baseball (and to a lesser degree college football) games I can follow on radio. Watching on TV is cake; games are three hours long, lots of commercials (so I can read the newspaper at the same time), anything I don't understand is explained by the announcers, and anything important that happens (including virtually every play in football) gets replayed.

For soccer you're talking about a game with almost no ads and no replays. The game moves constantly, so you can't take your eyes off the screen. On radio it makes no sense whatsoever, and the announcers don't say anything I can understand (much like ice hockey). 110 minutes? I can do that for maybe ten minutes. Soccer and ice hockey remind me of ballet, which I can also do for about ten minutes a year.

[Bishop]

Originally Posted by Cooleyvol

Sorry to pop your bubble, meat, but it was football long before our 'football' was even thought of. Just b/c you don't understand it doesnt mean it adheres to your naming criteria.

A quick poll of the world's population would, indeed, show that it IS football. This is one sport that the US neither 'gets' nor controls. Pity, too, as it is 'the beautiful game'.

Wouldn't that be 'futbol', since most of the English speaking countries call it soccer. The US does, Canada does, Australia does. Only the mother country calls it 'football'.

That being said, I enjoy watching -good- soccer. The stuff we get on TV here usually isn't.

[koohead]

I'd definitely like to see a more in-depth feature where players are affected by what management is saying about them. The ability to write your own game recaps (and news articles in general) is a good start. Now the engine just needs a way to search for negative words or something like that.
My fear is every player reacts differently to being benched or called out. Take 2 examples IRL...Marbury with the Knicks and Edgerin James of the Cardinals. Granted, 2 different sports and all and possibly 2 different situations, but also 2 very different results on a personal as well as team level. If implemented, I'd like to see a players resulting reaction be based on several factors, including how well the team is doing, his contract status, some of his ratings (loyalty, greed, leadership), and possibly new ones (clubhouse cancer rating??). Every player should react differently. Maybe a negative press conference makes a player with a high work ethic rating wake up and improve, while it results in Operation Shutdown for someone with a low loyalty and work ethic rating. I just don't want every negative comment to result in an angry player...that makes the feature predictable and something I won't use.

[Bluenoser]

Originally Posted by Curtis

Little effort to watch? Maybe you watch differently than I do. Baseball (and to a lesser degree college football) games I can follow on radio. Watching on TV is cake; games are three hours long, lots of commercials (so I can read the newspaper at the same time), anything I don't understand is explained by the announcers, and anything important that happens (including virtually every play in football) gets replayed.

For soccer you're talking about a game with almost no ads and no replays. The game moves constantly, so you can't take your eyes off the screen. On radio it makes no sense whatsoever, and the announcers don't say anything I can understand (much like ice hockey). 110 minutes? I can do that for maybe ten minutes. Soccer and ice hockey remind me of ballet, which I can also do for about ten minutes a year.

It's got nothing to do with "effort to watch". It's got everything to do with knowing and understanding the sport. I grew up listening to hockey on the radio. When I hear a game I can picture in my mind exactly what is going on and follow the play with ease. I'm sure the same applies for you with baseball, the same as soccer does for bababui.

It's what you know and enjoy. I'm quite sure if you grew up following soccer you'd have no problem listening to it on the radio simply because of familiarity.

[Raidergoo]

Dammit, focus!

What game elements, if any, from FM09 ought to be considered for future iterations of OOTP?

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Raidergoo

Dammit, focus!

What game elements, if any, from FM09 ought to be considered for future iterations of OOTP?

I think relationships were the point of this thread.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Raidergoo

Dammit, focus!

What game elements, if any, from FM09 ought to be considered for future iterations of OOTP?

Certainly not relationships.

[John C]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Certainly not relationships.

Completely disagree. That was definitely a central point of this thread.

[asurob]

Originally Posted by Raidergoo

Dammit, focus!

What game elements, if any, from FM09 ought to be considered for future iterations of OOTP?

To be perfectly honest.

The 3D system. or something along those lines.

Nothing beats it for me then setting my roster and watching the "play" the game in FM09. I know butkus about soccer, but after playing the demo a few times I was sold on buying the game because of the engine.

I was a manage only guy in High heat, manage only in Madden, hell if I could manage only in NCAA on my 360 I would. I love calling the plays and then watching them play out.

I really loved watching (and interacting) in High Heat.

Hand eye coordination is for the young...and I aint young.

IF OOTP ever did something along the lines of a 3D engine to sim the games, I'd be all over that.

[dancariaz]

Originally Posted by Matter2003

Yes I totally agree with you there. There is no such thing as open locker rooms at most soccer clubs. Players are not made available for media before or after games, when the locker rooms are closed to everyone except coaches and players. There is only a "mixed area" where players can stop and talk to the media if they choose to.

However, that being said, obviously the passion is there for the media to find out as much as possible and IMHO it leads to much more speculation by the media in Europe than there is in the US since the majority of the time you aren't able to get the answers to your questions...

this statement shows, that u have absolutely no idea about football in europe at all. Not very smart to tell something that u don't even know, typical for an american.